Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[cantsin]

This matter may well have far reaching effects for Corbyn and, more importantly, The Labour Party in general. Don't be surprised if further revelations start seeping out. What a mess, what dirty, unattractive, distasteful mess it all is.

And Corbyn and his dumb cohorts have only themselves to blame. Entirely.

the 'revelations' have been 'seeping out' since the day JC was elected leader, so zero surprises.
What form do you see these 'far reaching effects' taking , for the Party / leadership ?

 

[Combustible]

I understand how it happens: he's been immersed in the Palestine liberation movement for decades, holding together a very disparate group of political movements - over the years he's made the choice to look the other way for the sake of political expediency and getting stuff done - at first no doubt with only minor infractions, but after 20 years of ignoring gradually worse and worse things, here he is not noticing The hook-nosed Jews counting their money on a mural one step down from the blood libel.

I wonder what the link is between the current issue of antisemitism on the 'left' and campaigning for Palestine. I'm sure it doesn't need saying here that criticism of Israel is not the same as being antisemitic, and also that many of Israel's supporters deliberately conflate the two. But it does remain a question over whether the antisemitism that has been tolerated within these movements is mainly because already existing antisemites are naturally drawn to Palestinian campaigns, or whether the frankly overwhelming emphasis on Palestine from some sections of the left (e.g. the SWP and allies) has helped push people towards an antisemitic conspiratorial outlook. Some claim that the overwhelming focus on Palestine itself is evidence of antisemitism, which I don't think is fair at all in many cases, many people are genuinely horrified by Israeli atrocities and there are lot's of reasons why some issues get more attention than others. But I can also see how such a focus on Israel can drive people to antisemitic conspiratorial world views, and also means that others turn a blind eye towards it.

 

[butchersapron]

The core of the Lab Party associated anti semitism comes predominantly from the Post Anonymous / Occupy / Anti NWO crew, as they've fallen in behind Corbyn online ( for a variety of reasons, up to and including his lifelong support for the Palestinian struggle) -

But it's not reasonable to claim they're part of any coalition,'de facto' or otherwise - that implies a two way relationship,which doesn't exist. And whilst some of these gonzo's may swell online numbers to some degree, their numbers aren't that big, they're just amplified signifcantly by the usual suspects desperate to weaponise AS vs Corbyn / the left.

The coalition may not be a formal one that he's looked for and has probably been largely imposed on him by another coalition of the idiotic between these loons and the tories and labour party opposition to corbyn (and by his own past history and political positions and activity) but it's one that he's now a central part of - each time they defend him and his mistakes on anti-semitic grounds without firmly cutting himself off from them and their rancid support - each time they make another anti-semitic speech, share another anti-semitic meme, ask why you can can question everything but the holocaust - then it further cements both their support and the poisoned well that Corbyn's opponents - internal external - can draw from. That's what i meant by coalition. And just repeating that you're not anti-semitic does precisely nothing to remove yourself from that coalition.

And i think, without being a dick about, your experience of these types may be very diff from what i'm seeing up here - hundreds and hundreds of these people turning up repeatedly for beeley meetings, parading massive anti-semitic banners in the town centre in explicit support of corbyn.

 

[killer b]

I wonder what the link is between the current issue of antisemitism on the 'left' and campaigning for Palestine.

it's the main driver of it. Obviously I thought.

 

[krtek a houby]

Heh.

They couldn't get him on the so-called IRA support, so now they go for the anti-Semitic smear.

Would he really have got such overwhelming support (from members, grassroots etc) if he was a bigot?

 

[Combustible]

it's the main driver of it. Obviously I thought.

I meant more is that mainly because it is drawing in existing antisemites/conspiraloons, or is it driving people towards these beliefs.

 

[killer b]

A little from column A, a little from column B.

 

[stethoscope]

Heh.

They couldn't get him on the so-called IRA support, so now they go for the anti-Semitic smear.

The best way to avoid being 'got' on antisemitism is to not post supportive responses on a facebook page to a very obviously dodgy piece of artwork.

 

[krtek a houby]

The best way to not be 'got' on antisemitism is not to post supportive responses on a facebook page to a very obviously dodgy piece of artwork.

True but (I believe) he's perhaps not as clued-up on social media and "art" as he could be.

 

[Rob Ray]

Heh.

They couldn't get him on the so-called IRA support, so now they go for the anti-Semitic smear.

Would he really have got such overwhelming support (from members, grassroots etc) if he was a bigot?

You're really asking whether British voters would overlook unpleasant bigotry on some issues to get someone in power who they think will enact the main bulk of their preferred programme?

 

[krtek a houby]

You're really asking whether British voters would overlook unpleasant bigotry on some issues to get someone in power who they think will enact the main bulk of their preferred programme?

No, I just believe he's been naive and misinterpreted. I don't see him as a bigot.

 

[cantsin]

The coalition may not be a formal one that he's looked for and has probably been largely imposed on him by another coalition of the idiotic between these loons and the tories and labour party opposition to corbyn (and by his own past history and political positions and activity) but it's one that he's now a central part of - each time they defend him and his mistakes on anti-semitic grounds without firmly cutting himself off from them and their rancid support - each time they make another anti-semitic speech, share another anti-semitic meme, ask why you can can question everything but the holocaust - then it further cements both their support and the poisoned well that Corbyn's opponents - internal external - can draw from. That's what i meant by coalition. And just repeating that you're not anti-semitic does precisely nothing to remove yourself from that coalition.

And i think, without being a dick about, your experience of these types may be very diff from what i'm seeing up here - hundreds and hundreds of these people turning up repeatedly for beeley meetings, parading massive anti-semitic banners in the town centre in explicit support of corbyn.

true, I only see online stuff - and I did see that Bristol mural stuff as well IIRC ? ( what's Beeley btw )

and agreed, Corbyn needs to stand up and tell these w*nkers specifically what a waste if space they are and, where to go;

something along the lines of Seymours thread here, but with a bit of vitriol thrown in for good measure :
:

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think it’s also important to distinguish between impact on voters and on activists / potential political allies.

I don’t think conspiraloons are firm supporters of socialism.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see most of them jump the other way in a crunch.

 

[butchersapron]

true, I only see online stuff - and I did see that Bristol mural stuff as well IIRC ? ( what's Beeley btw )

and agreed, Corbyn needs to stand up and tell these w*nkers specifically what a waste if space they are and, where to go;

something along the lines of Seymours thread here, but with a bit of vitriol thrown in for good measure :
:

Beeley

 

[Rob Ray]

No, I just believe he's been naive and misinterpreted. I don't see him as a bigot.

I think it's a red herring to see bigotry solely as being something you are or aren't, it's a spectrum of behaviour and assumption we all fall into depending on our social upbringing and ongoing circles.

I don't doubt that the root of Corbyn's approach to Judaism is a progressive one, that his wish would be for Israel and Palestine to find peace, that he has a lot of sympathy for/knowledge of the historic and current progressive wings of Judaism. That doesn't mean he hasn't potentially internalised a tacit acceptance of loonspud supporters' anti-semitic nonsense as being part and parcel of left/Palestine solidarity discourse.

 

[butchersapron]

No, I just believe he's been naive and misinterpreted. I don't see him as a bigot.

And also, let's remember this poor man didn't even go to oxbridge, so he's not had the benefit of a full life experience.

 

[krtek a houby]

I think it's a red herring to see bigotry solely as being something you are or aren't, it's a spectrum of behaviour and assumption we all fall into depending on our social upbringing and ongoing circles.

I don't doubt that the root of Corbyn's approach to Judaism is a progressive one, that his wish would be for Israel and Palestine to find peace, that he has a lot of sympathy for/knowledge of the historic and current progressive wings of Judaism. That doesn't mean he hasn't potentially internalised a tacit acceptance of loonspud supporters' anti-semitic nonsense as being part and parcel of left/Palestine solidarity discourse.

Tbh, I don't know the inner workings of his mind. He's always struck me as a decent, principled politician and if he does attract the fringe conspiraloons and anti-Semites, maybe he needs to be more vociferous in his condemnation of them.

 

[stethoscope]

True but (I believe) he's perhaps not as clued-up on social media and "art" as he could be.

He's been in politics for 35 years though and he must be aware of the conspiracy/loon stuff that surrounds this stuff. Besides, exercising caution with anything he writes/has written on social media around this sort of thing surely isn't too difficult.

 

[krtek a houby]

He's been in politics for 35 years though and he must be aware of the conspiracy/loon stuff that surrounds this stuff. Besides, exercising caution with anything he writes/has written on social media around this sort of thing surely isn't too difficult.

Possibly. But he doesn't strike me as the most savvy when it comes to social media. I got the feeling that he was not really a fan of the whole thing and only had to get involved as his public profile grew and grew.

 

[Supine]

The conservatives are caught with their pants down over the CA scandal and the best labour can do is shoot themselves in the foot with an antisemitic rocket launcher. Prepare for another ten years of conservative power

 

[scifisam]

The conservatives are caught with their pants down over the CA scandal and the best labour can do is shoot themselves in the foot with an antisemitic rocket launcher. Prepare for another ten years of conservative power

Well, it's been brought up again after six years (and after it had been gone over in 2015 as well). Not that that means it's OK or anything, but it does mean this isn't Labour/Corbyn doing something stupid now.

 

[butchersapron]

The conservatives are caught with their pants down over the CA scandal and the best labour can do is shoot themselves in the foot with an antisemitic rocket launcher. Prepare for another ten years of conservative power

Tell us, what should the labour leadership be doing right now?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Tell us, what should the labour leadership be doing right now?

Interesting question. Seems like the vulnerability arises from the combination of old school ‘anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism’ labour left veterans in public positions and a rush of new members and supporters some of whom are actual anti-semites.

Or at least indiscriminate consumers of conspiracy-milieu cultural material.

 

[killer b]

indiscriminate consumers of conspiracy-milieu cultural material.

Mostly these, I think. Unthinking, unaware or uncaring (or in denial) about the roots of what they're sharing, rather than full-blooded racists. Although I'm not sure there's that much difference.

 

[Mr Moose]

He's been in politics for 35 years though and he must be aware of the conspiracy/loon stuff that surrounds this stuff. Besides, exercising caution with anything he writes/has written on social media around this sort of thing surely isn't too difficult.

Showing off maybe the problem. Namechecking Diego Rivera (and not even getting his name right), hey, aren't I cool kids? The least successful left wing venture into art since a middle-aged Paul Weller exhibited his etchings 'for the kids'.

 

[killer b]

Although I also think it's best to talk about actions and words being racist, rather than people being racist.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

He's been in politics for 35 years though and he must be aware of the conspiracy/loon stuff that surrounds this stuff.

Of course he was. Anyone who has been involved in left politics has seen this sort of shit and instantly recognises the tropes/symbols etc.

 

[rutabowa]

Anyone who has been involved in left politics has seen this sort of shit and instantly recognises the tropes/symbols etc.

My parents have been active in the labour party for around 70 years, and I am fairly sure they would not recognise it as an antisemitic trope, so not "anyone". I just don't think it comes up in traditional local party politics? Post-internet tho everyone probably is more aware

 

[Red Sky]

true, I only see online stuff - and I did see that Bristol mural stuff as well IIRC ? ( what's Beeley btw )

and agreed, Corbyn needs to stand up and tell these w*nkers specifically what a waste if space they are and, where to go;

something along the lines of Seymours thread here, but with a bit of vitriol thrown in for good measure :
:

So these tropes (Eyes in Pyramids, Bavarian Illuminati etc) can be used without being anti semitic?

 

[Joe Reilly]

But that said, the imagery in that mural is pretty blatant, and it is hard to believe any even vaguely experienced political player wouldn't recognise it.

Of course he was. Anyone who has been involved in left politics has seen this sort of shit and instantly recognises the tropes/symbols etc.

On top of that, this is not a one-off. Corbyn is a repeat offender in the literal sense. The only other political figure I can think of that would defend a Protocol of the Elders of Zion themed mural on the grounds of 'free speech', is Richard Edmonds.