I think it is good to recognise that there is an issue in the party; it is better than pretending it doesn't exist.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Taking it as read that Corbyn was a bit of a chump in his comments.
Clearly there’s a major PR push on this 2012 issue right now.
Given the timing I’d be very interested to see if there’s any targeting of messages aimed at getting activists to stay home in the run up to the local elections or similar stuff.
I mean Cambridge Analytica might be in the spotlight right now, but they’re hardly the only people who do that sort of work.
Clearly there’s a major PR push on this 2012 issue right now.
Given the timing I’d be very interested to see if there’s any targeting of messages aimed at getting activists to stay home in the run up to the local elections or similar stuff.
I mean Cambridge Analytica might be in the spotlight right now, but they’re hardly the only people who do that sort of work.
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He isn't reigniting it - it is the issue. While plenty of people think he's a dyed in the wool antisemite himself, for most the problem is that he ignores, looks the other way or doesn't notice antisemitism. He can't answer the first lot except by resigning. The second, he can work to address - which is what he's attempting with that statement.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes there is, but at the same time - so what? Would people fail to call out clear anti-semitism and repeatedly being involved with dodgy anti-semites with any other person because it might damage them electorally or reputation wise ? Not for a second - or at least not without becoming complicit in that anti-semitism themselves. And of course, that's exactly what's happened with the by now standard response of oh it's just an attack on Corbyn - well of course it is - and leaving the underlying issue alone. Until the next one, then the next one. Which isn't actually helping Corbyn or the labour left in any real sense anyway - not when it's them themselves leaving hostages to fortune dotted all over the place.
And this crap needs dealing with and dealing with seriously - even if it's electorally damaging.
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The It's just another attack on Corbyn crew's reaction is the response those coordinating the attack were actually looking for.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Sure, but the PR issue is also an important one.
The political use of that body of technique is arguably an important vector of rising anti Semitic/conspiraloonery.
The political use of that body of technique is arguably an important vector of rising anti Semitic/conspiraloonery.
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bemused
Well-Known Member
One of the things I like about Corbyn is he is unashamed of his positions. Where that bites in on the arse he in cases like this where, although most people don't believe he's sitting at home grinding his teeth about Jews, his inability to issue a straightforward apology makes it look rather bad.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
The Party commissioned a report to do that and was in the process of moving on. I thought it had recognised the problem some while ago and had the measure of its size. It should have now been at the stage of having built bridges and inspiring confidence.
This mural issue has it back to square one. Corbyn doesn’t deserve a pat on the back for making it front page.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Which one though bernie? And whose one? For the one that is basically an attack on Corbyn and carried out by people who will use any means to do so then these people are falling into the trap (see killer b's post above). And i also think we shouldn't discount that the people behind exposing this stuff may actually not like anti-semitism - so two birds one stone. For the PR battle that Corbyn and labour have with the wider public - one that clearly reviles anti-semitism but votes on other issues - to establish themselves as enduringly credible defenders of their interests then they need to sort their house out and do it publicly seriously and in a convincing manner. There are signs the leadership may have started to get that in some small way - some of the newer hardcore corbyn types, the ones more visible on social media so likely to do something damaging- not by a long chalk. Which is why this needs to be faced head on and now.
I don't think this will damage Corbyn or Labour too much electorally - what it will and has damaged is the idea of labour as a principled socialist party full of decent types who only want to help their local communities - the type of people labour needs to secure it's long term future and what any socialist types who think this it's worth fighting for as part of a broader parliamentary-extra parliamentary coalition that corbyn says is the long term aim need that party to be. And i think it's some of the people who got him elected as leader who may make that harder - if not impossible to do. Not without further and probably extended internal strife anyway.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And let's be honest - there are not just members saying oh it's just another attack, there are members defending the anti-semitic mural - arguing that it's not, it is in fact an accurate representation of both history and the current world. And again, these are the ones highly likely to be posting this on social media.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He's one of the anarchists-for-labour crowd - exactly the sort i meant.
not-bono-ever
meh
Most of the clips on in the paper seem to have missed out the NWO statement on the far LH side. Its was not exactly subtle this shitty piece of art, indeed the placement would also seem to have be antagonistic. But what do I know?
cantsin
Well-Known Member
If Corbyn was one of the 95 % that access Facebook via smartphone, didnt spend long on the actual photo, just responded to a " don't remove the political mural " post, it's feasible he wouldn't have noticed the realities of ( what would have been a pretty small ) image
cantsin
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen a single defence of the mural, anywhere on soc media - I've seen seen likes of Richard Seymour pulling the artist and his conspira-bollocks to pieces - no defence of the piece
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I've seen loads - i'm not even on facebook and i've seen loads on there via people showing me it in varying stages of disbelief/anger/laughter/told you so ness.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
sorry, should have added ' from anyone sensible / with half a brain' etc
I think it is a more tricky and subtle issue to fix than your depiction suggests; it probably requires constant vigilance and openness to criticism to eventually evolve away from.
I dont want a political party I give my support to deal with issues by just "commissioning a report and moving on"! I want feel proud of them!!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Surely the point is that its the de facto informal coalition corbyn is now in with the people who aren't sensible and have only half a brain - the mural painter, the various holocaust deniers and anti-semites he's been seen associating with - that is going to do the damage. Of course it's not going to be the sensible non racist ones.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think many were before this resurfaced - under the rubric of oh it's just anti-corbyn attack stuff. Actually seeing this piece of shit mural seems to have woken some people up. Brilliantly enough.
That is 100% true for me
yeah, fair point.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I can imagine the party leadership putting its house in order with respect to anti-semitism. They’ve still got a stake in what you might call more traditional forms of knowledge and culture. (Well, most of them)
I’m struggling to imagine eradicating it at the rank and file level while our culture sustains a massive conspiraloon milieu which is a significant platform for political propaganda targeted at a growing base of alienated subjects.
Which is kind of why I keep wanting to talk about that bit.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Incidentally, i read a piece in the new issue of Dissent the other day that i mean to pass onto you. It's a generally risible piece but one that introduces an interesting idea - what we are seeing is not the rise of conspiracy theories but conspiracism: "Conspiracism is not new, of course, but the conspiracism we see today does introduce something new—conspiracy without the theory." I think the article misses the target of this in its rush to defend expert and governmental legitimacy but think the idea can be prised away from that. A manner of viewing the world, a total perspective but one not based on specifics, no specific theories but "epistemic polarization".
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yvonne ridley, late of military intelligence
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
i wonder weather there is an element of crying wolf that may minimise the damage this will cause amongst the wider electorate?
Most people would register it as another attack on corbyn, on an issue on which he has been attacked before. They might register that he made a supportive comment about a mural that was anti-semetic. On that level i dont think it will make much difference to weather they vote labour or not. The majority of the population wouldn't get what was offensive about the mural without being told.
The damage will be the aggro this causes between people who support corbyn and are having to change their minds (like many on here) and the denialists. The more i think about it the more i think it reflects very badly on him - it makes him seem a bit thick and to have no awareness about how the whole conspiracy theory sub-culture (which - as his response to the nerve gas attack demonstrated - he gives too much credence to) is shot through with virulent antisemitism. Or worse - he doesn't care.
Most people would register it as another attack on corbyn, on an issue on which he has been attacked before. They might register that he made a supportive comment about a mural that was anti-semetic. On that level i dont think it will make much difference to weather they vote labour or not. The majority of the population wouldn't get what was offensive about the mural without being told.
The damage will be the aggro this causes between people who support corbyn and are having to change their minds (like many on here) and the denialists. The more i think about it the more i think it reflects very badly on him - it makes him seem a bit thick and to have no awareness about how the whole conspiracy theory sub-culture (which - as his response to the nerve gas attack demonstrated - he gives too much credence to) is shot through with virulent antisemitism. Or worse - he doesn't care.
not-bono-ever
meh
Yvonne believed MOSSAD were hunting her down for an assassination to make political capital out of her fame.
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