Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[scifisam]

On the BBC lunchtime news today but only mentioned briefly in a wider 'Has Corbyn lost touch with Labour core voters?' type piece. Much more emphasis on Owen Smith.

It's probably partly because this was already gone over in 2015 in the mainstream media - they could still go for this again ofc (and it'd be better if they did, really, because it's more significant) but even journos need novelty.

I don't actually think Corbyn's all that bright in some ways. I think he's a hard-working plodder. There was an episode of Gogglebox he was on where they were watching University Challenge and I don't think he was faking not knowing some pretty easy questions.

And look at his atrocious spelling of people's names in that Facebook post - he didn't check whether he'd got the names right and for an MP I'd expect fact-checking like that in a post that would be seen by the public. That's partly why I believe that he didn't really look at the picture or notice the anti-Semitic tropes in it. It's a failing of his, being too trusting of his allies and not checking things. Fortunately it's a failing that can be corrected over time, and can be helped by having good advisers (elected ones, preferably, ie other MPs), and he does seem to have got better. Easily trusting his allies is very likely to have been broken from him by now, that's for sure.

In theory I'd love a politician who was brilliant and quick off the mark and didn't trust people too much, but we've had those (Blair especially) and they didn't use their brilliance for good. I don't want a complete moron either (like Trump) but maybe someone a bit more in the middle could be worth a try. There's nobody else who can do better and even if there were changing leaders constantly would be detrimental.

 

[Corax]

From the twitter thread:

A Corbyn spokesman said: “In 2012, Jeremy was responding to concerns about the removal of public art on the grounds of freedom of speech. However, the mural was offensive, used antisemitic imagery which has no place in our society, and it is right it was removed.”

Is this correct? If so, seems reasonable enough to me.

Sacking Owen was a very bad idea though, IMO.

 

[stethoscope]

Sacking Owen was a very bad idea though, IMO.

What was Corbyn supposed to do? Bad idea because it'll fuel the Labour moderates?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The fucking Stalinist - putting Smith on the front bench after he challenged him for leadership, and then taking him off after repeatedly making public statements against the party line. It’s like “1984” etc etc.

Probably _will_ cause him a lot more issues than the mural though.

 

[killer b]

From the twitter thread:


Is this correct? If so, seems reasonable enough to me.

Sacking Owen was a very bad idea though, IMO.

It would (maybe) be reasonable if it was a one off, rather than the latest in a series of occasions where corbo has not noticed some blatant antisemitism under his nose.

I understand how it happens: he's been immersed in the Palestine liberation movement for decades, holding together a very disparate group of political movements - over the years he's made the choice to look the other way for the sake of political expediency and getting stuff done - at first no doubt with only minor infractions, but after 20 years of ignoring gradually worse and worse things, here he is not noticing The hook-nosed Jews counting their money on a mural one step down from the blood libel.

How he even find himself there, posting on the page of a mad racist artist? I'm willing to bet it's because his colleague in stop the war - the mad racist journalist Yvonne Ridley - posted an anti-Semitic comment on it so it popped up in his news feed. And he doesn't notice the racism from Yvonne anymore because he's been looking the other way so long, or the racism coded into the painting, so he posts some worthy bollocks about censorship and goes back to the allotment.

This is the generous reading of it, of course. It could just be that he doesn't notice the racists because he's a racist too.

 

[J Ed]

From twenty twelve...

Brick Lane mural to be painted over

I didn't not realise that Luftur Rahman had previously noted the tropes perpetuated by the image and had it removed on that basis.... and Corbyn couldn't? Or did and still opposed the removal?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I understand how it happens: he's been immersed in the Palestine liberation movement for decades, holding together a very disparate group of political movements - over the years he's made the choice to look the other way for the sake of political expediency and getting stuff done - at first no doubt with only minor infractions, but after 20 years of ignoring gradually worse and worse things, here he is not noticing The hook-nosed Jews counting their money on a mural one step down from the blood libel.

I was going to post something similar. He’s not even unusual in this - well obviously in the position he’s held, but turning a blind eye to antisemitism for some idea of “the sake of the movement” is very common. I’ve probably done it myself at some point. This can be true at the same time as saying that the attacks are politically motivated and that accusations of antisemitism are used against any critics of the Israeli government.

 

[scifisam]

From twenty twelve...

Brick Lane mural to be painted over

I didn't not realise that Luftur Rahman had previously noted the tropes perpetuated by the image and had it removed on that basis.... and Corbyn couldn't? Or did and still opposed the removal?

Rahman had nothing to do with it.

 

[J Ed]

Rahman had nothing to do with it.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...se-mural-was-condemned-as-antisemitic-1.62106

Mr Ockerman’s Freedom for Humanity was criticised by Lutfur Rahman, the controversial Tower Hamlets mayor at the time.

He said he was concerned the work could be interpreted as offensive to Jews because “the images of the bankers perpetuate antisemitic propaganda about conspiratorial Jewish domination of financial and political institutions”.

 

[scifisam]

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...se-mural-was-condemned-as-antisemitic-1.62106

Because Rahman just LOVES Jewish people. Anyone who defends that arsehole loses their credibility.

 

[J Ed]

Because Rahman just LOVES Jewish people. Anyone who defends that arsehole loses their credibility.

I am aware that Rahman has that reputation, in fact I'm obviously leaning on it to make the point that if it's something that Rahman is at least savvy enough to pick up on then what's the thing that's stopping Corbyn from doing the same?

 

[rekil]

I looked through that artist's twitter and who he follows. He's a walking cliche - a stoner libertarian into every conspiracy going. He was at that anarchapulcho thing ('anarcho'-capitalist/nu-age loon conference). Prepare to have your minds blown sheeple.


And if you've been accused of anti-semitism and general loonery I'm not sure if appealing to David Icke and Luke Rudkowski for support helps your defence much.

Spoiler

 

[kenny g]

I am pretty astonished that mural doesnt have any blood libel reference in it.

 

[scifisam]

I looked through that artist's twitter and who he follows. He's a walking cliche - a stoner libertarian into every conspiracy going. He was at that anarchapulcho thing ('anarcho'-capitalist/nu-age loon conference). Prepare to have your minds blown sheeple.


And if you've been accused of anti-semitism and general loonery I'm not sure if appealing to David Icke and Luke Rudkowski for support helps your defence much.

Spoiler

View attachment 130824

Yeah, he's fucking awful. An all-purpose conspiraloon whose art is not very good. I think less of Corbyn for associating with him tbh but it doesn't totally surprise me.

 

[Mr Moose]

Just done a very quick check of BBC, Guardian, Telegraph and this story doesn't seem to be making waves on those sites yet. To my surprise, Owen Smith's sacking appears to be being treated as more important.

There was a bus coming and Smith was standing conveniently close by.

 

[Mr Moose]

From twenty twelve...

Brick Lane mural to be painted over

I didn't not realise that Luftur Rahman had previously noted the tropes perpetuated by the image and had it removed on that basis.... and Corbyn couldn't? Or did and still opposed the removal?

It’s not a good idea for an MP to simply assume that a council is being officious. Understanding the issues is sort of the job of an MP or should be.

 

[Rob Ray]

It would (maybe) be reasonable if it was a one off, rather than the latest in a series of occasions where corbo has not noticed some blatant antisemitism under his nose.

I understand how it happens: he's been immersed in the Palestine liberation movement for decades, holding together a very disparate group of political movements - over the years he's made the choice to look the other way for the sake of political expediency and getting stuff done - at first no doubt with only minor infractions, but after 20 years of ignoring gradually worse and worse things, here he is not noticing The hook-nosed Jews counting their money on a mural one step down from the blood libel.

How he even find himself there, posting on the page of a mad racist artist? I'm willing to bet it's because his colleague in stop the war - the mad racist journalist Yvonne Ridley - posted an anti-Semitic comment on it so it popped up in his news feed. And he doesn't notice the racism from Yvonne anymore because he's been looking the other way so long, or the racism coded into the painting, so he posts some worthy bollocks about censorship and goes back to the allotment.

This is the generous reading of it, of course. It could just be that he doesn't notice the racists because he's a racist too.

Thing is though most of us here have been around long enough that one glance at the giant Illuminati pyramid dominating the scene would ring warning bells and prompt a closer look before writing anything — you'd have to not actually see the mural to avoid noticing it's bonkers almost immediately.

Like many I've found myself arguing with hardline anti-Palestine types and having to ignore "supportive" comments from anti-semitic bellends to try and keep the argument on target before now, but I ain't proactively posting in their favour either.

 

[killer b]

Well, as I said it's a generous reading. I do try to be generous.

I kind of think it's necessary to be generous too, if you want to help people down from their entrenched positions. Yelling 'racist!' isn't getting anyone anywhere.

 

[Rob Ray]

Sure, and I think the main issue with judging this kind of stuff is that unless you know Corbyn well, exactly where this comes from and where it goes is extremely difficult to say. Anti-semitism is nebulous, often unconsciously ingrained and so tied up symbolically with other nonsense it can be hard to extricate from just being in solidarity with Palestinian peoples.

And as others have said, there's often an element of ignoring acts of anti-semitism, being in itself de facto anti-semitism, which is perhaps not actively intended to be such but draws from long running elements of leftist anti-imperialism which are just fairly shitty politically.

But that said, the imagery in that mural is pretty blatant, and it is hard to believe any even vaguely experienced political player wouldn't recognise it.

 

[killer b]

Another statement:

 

[03gills]

Telfon Jeeza, I love it for the same reason I love how stuff slides off Trump; the screams of frustration from those trying to catch him out.

 

[bemused]

But that said, the imagery in that mural is pretty blatant, and it is hard to believe any even vaguely experienced political player wouldn't recognise it.

This is the key point, it wasn't a subtle piece of art criticising Judaism or Israel - it's a picture of Jewish bankers playing monopoly on the backs of people. The fact he looked at the picture and then through he'd comment on it is remarkable.

 

[rioted]

This is the key point, it wasn't a subtle piece of art criticising Judaism or Israel - it's a picture of Jewish bankers playing monopoly on the backs of people. The fact he looked at the picture and then through he'd comment on it is remarkable.

is it Jewish bankers? Or just bankers, some of whom are jewish?

 

[Rob Ray]

is it Jewish bankers? Or just bankers, some of whom are jewish?

Yes when doing a table featuring a set of bankers playing monopoly below your all-seeing illuminati eye and man waving placard about the New World Order it really is important to make sure that they're only *mostly* Jewish, otherwise you'll just look foolish.

 

[Knotted]

I can see why people wouldn't see this mural as being anti-semitic, I don't think the bankers are clearly Jewish stereotypes. But it clearly has conspiracy nut themes and that should ring alarm bells. The toxicity of conspiracy theorists and their overlap with anti-semitism should be part of any political education and my experience is that the Labour left are really lacking on this front apparently even including Corbyn himself. Very frustrating.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I can see why people wouldn't see this mural as being anti-semitic, I don't think the bankers are clearly Jewish stereotypes. But it clearly has conspiracy nut themes and that should ring alarm bells. The toxicity of conspiracy theorists and their overlap with anti-semitism should be part of any political education and my experience is that the Labour left are really lacking on this front apparently even including Corbyn himself. Very frustrating.

anyone who knows anything about anti-semtism would spot it immediately - its straight out of the same playbook deployed by the nazis and others before them. Corbyn -as a life long socialist and anti-racist campaigner - should have known this. Its pretty shocking that he looked at it and wrote the supportive message - rather than one that said - "that is a piece of vile anti-semitism - you should be ashamed of yourself"
Im pretty sure the image had been doing the rounds before the mural - it would be more credible if the stoner twat who painted it hadn't realised what it was.

 

[rekil]

Yeah, he's fucking awful. An all-purpose conspiraloon whose art is not very good. I think less of Corbyn for associating with him tbh but it doesn't totally surprise me.

He's very bad at drawing.

Spoiler: can you guess who the fuck this is meant to be yet

anyone who knows anything about anti-semtism would spot it immediately - its straight out of the same playbook deployed by the nazis and others before them. Corbyn -as a life long socialist and anti-racist campaigner - should have known this. Its pretty shocking that he looked at it and wrote the supportive message - rather than one that said - "that is a piece of vile anti-semitism - you should be ashamed of yourself"
Im pretty sure the image had been doing the rounds before the mural - it would be more credible if the stoner twat who painted it hadn't realised what it was.

The stoner twat knew exactly what it's meant to depict. He's a nearly 50 year old committed loon not a slightly mixed up adolescent.

Spoiler: Icke worshipper

Spoiler: Icke on the protocols

 

[Mr Moose]

Another statement:

View attachment 130910
View attachment 130911

Is anyone concerned that rather than deal with his own failing on this one he’s simply reignited the issue for the whole party?

 

[Kaka Tim]

He's very bad at drawing.

Spoiler: can you guess who the fuck this is meant to be yet

View attachment 130990

The stoner twat knew exactly what it's meant to depict. He's a nearly 50 year old committed loon not a slightly mixed up adolescent.

Spoiler: Icke worshipper

View attachment 130991

Spoiler: Icke on the protocols

View attachment 130992

fair dos. A committed cunt then.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I can see why people wouldn't see this mural as being anti-semitic,

How can you see that? What tropes are missing from it?

Do you think Corbyn looked at it and missed the subtlety of it as well?