Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[rutabowa]

So these tropes (Eyes in Pyramids, Bavarian Illuminati etc) can be used without being anti semitic?

I don't think they probably can be used now, but did anyone accuse robert anton wilson of being anti semitic? or the experimental theatre companies that did 24 hour shows of his stuff in the 70s/80s?

that's kind of irrelevant to now tho anyway, I agree that those images are pretty much soiled forever by association.

 

[Red Sky]

I don't think they probably can be used now, but did anyone accuse robert anton wilson of being anti semitic? or the experimental theatre companies that did 24 hour shows of his stuff in the 70s/80s?

I think they probably did and of being a member of the Bavarian Illuminati himself. But that was the game he was playing.

 

[rutabowa]

I think they probably did and of being a member of the Bavarian Illuminati himself. But that was the game he was playing.

Didn't he pretty much invent the whole illuminati thing as a joke/fiction tho? And it just got taken seriously and got out of hand and then got mixed up with the old anti semitic conspiracies as time went on. That was my understanding.

 

[butchersapron]

Didn't he pretty much invent the whole illuminati thing tho? And it just got out of hand.

Nope - been part of conspiracy guff since the reaction to the french revolution.

 

[killer b]

So these tropes (Eyes in Pyramids, Bavarian Illuminati etc) can be used without being anti semitic?

They should be dropped just for being shit.

 

[Mr Moose]

So these tropes (Eyes in Pyramids, Bavarian Illuminati etc) can be used without being anti semitic?

It's a conspiracy! Illooninazis everywhere m8.

 

[Red Sky]

Nope - been part of conspiracy guff since the reaction to the french revolution.

Jon Ronson's interaction with David Icke as detailed in "Them" was quite illustrative of the difficulties of deciding whether or not conspiracy theories are anti Semitic.

 

[Mr Moose]

Conspiracy theories draw randomnly and irrationally on stuff to make a big stew of wrongness. It makes it hard to separate the ingredients and mostly isn't worth the effort. It's about shit stirring, chipping away at reason.

 

[killer b]

Jon Ronson's interaction with David Icke as detailed in "Them" was quite illustrative of the difficulties of deciding whether or not conspiracy theories are anti Semitic.

I don't have much difficulty with it tbh.

 

[cantsin]

Jon Ronson's interaction with David Icke as detailed in "Them" was quite illustrative of the difficulties of deciding whether or not conspiracy theories are anti Semitic.

some are , some aren't I guess - Roswell / Chemtrails etc vs Illuminati / Bildeberg etc

 

[killer b]

New Statement! What's this, number 4 or 5?

 

[butchersapron]

One step forward two back. The idea that it's only jewish people bothered for example, and def tying in a defence of his actions to palestine while saying it shouldn't be. There's obv an internal battle going on in his circles right now.

 

[bemused]

The first line is a nice dig.

 

[Mr Moose]

Seems quite Corbyn this one. It has that grating didatic manner he has, As I told the Labour Party conference in 2016, antisemitism is an evil that led to one of the worst crimes of the 20th century. Did it really? Had no one noticed until 2016?

I will never be anything other than a militant opponent of antisemitism (unless in a moment of inattention I find myself endorsing it). Clunky.

 

[mojo pixy]

I meant more is that mainly because it is drawing in existing antisemites/conspiraloons, or is it driving people towards these beliefs.

in my own experience of the conspiraloon community (if that isn't a contradiction in terms, which it is but never mind) Israel's behaviour generally is seen as The Natural conclusion of Giving Jews their Own Country. See? See how evil they are? Look what they do!

It's exactly that blurring of anti-zionism and anti-semitism that the fuckers thrive on.

 

[butchersapron]

in my own experience of the conspiraloon community (if that isn't a contradiction in terms, which it is but never mind) Israel's behaviour generally is seen as The Natural conclusion of Giving Jews their Own Country. See? See how evil they are? Look what they do!

It's exactly that blurring of anti-zionism and anti-semitism that the fuckers hrive on.

What drove it before 1948?

 

[mojo pixy]

2018 is 70 years after 1948.

 

[butchersapron]

2018 is 70 years after 1948.

I wonder why it existed before 1948 though and why so many of the tropes actually ape the pre-1948 anti-semitism and make nothing but rhetorical passing reference to post 1948 stuff - or more likely seamlessly integrated. This mural we are here gathered to talk about for example.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think I wasn't clear, I was speaking specifically to the Israel contribution to the narrative. Israel just gets pointed at to justify all those pre-existing conspiracy theories about jews.

 

[butchersapron]

I think I wasn't clear, I was speaking specifically to the Israel contribution to the narrative. Israel just gets pointed at to justify all those pre-existing conspiracy theories about jews.

Ok, got you.

 

[mojo pixy]

What's 'good' about this IMO is that the whole subject of conspiranoid anti-semitism is getting a big public airing.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Re him putting out more statements, I'm not sure what else he's meant to do when people keep putting out their own saying he has questions to answer - other than, you know, answer them.

There are short, medium, and long term responses. Statements are short term responses. Medium term would be stuff like taking immediate action on kicking out twats (which has been ongoing, and needs to continue). Long term would be stuff like putting in place structures that make no tolerance for racism, antisemitism, and other forms of bigotry par for the course, and political education (which imo is more effective when done at a local level by activists, but needs to be supported nationally as well).

 

[butchersapron]

Re him putting out more statements, I'm not sure what else he's meant to do when people keep putting out their own saying he has questions to answer - other than, you know, answer them.

There are short, medium, and long term responses. Statements are short term responses. Medium term would be stuff like taking immediate action on kicking out twats (which has been ongoing, and needs to continue). Long term would be stuff like putting in place structures that make no tolerance for racism, antisemitism, and other forms of bigotry par for the course, and political education (which imo is more effective when done at a local level by activists, but needs to be supported nationally as well).

The short term response shows i think a clear internal battle in his team as they are to put it mildly developing - and i think this is because some new input has come in explaining just what modern anti-semitism is and how it operates, but there's also fightback within that text about this. Why this wider understanding wasn't present before - well there are many possibilities. The official PSC have fought as long and as hard as anyone to expose and get rid of this shit so i wouldn't point the finger at them.

 

[teqniq]

Heh.

 

[Joe Reilly]

New Statement! What's this, number 4 or 5?

View attachment 131027

Apparently he would have needed to 'study' the mural to work out its political significance? This from a former president of AFA?

 

[butchersapron]

BBC1 report just then by Laura Kuessenberg just turned me into an labour anti-semite. Fucking shameless.

 

[The39thStep]

I also wonder what the influence of Islamacist types in and around the Labour Party has contributed.

 

[butchersapron]

I also wonder what the influence of Islamacist types in and around the Labour Party has contributed.

The RESPECT def allowed anti-semitism a front door into wider coalition or organisational politics in terms of formal representative stuff - but maybe that was a result of a wider existing culture where anti-semitism was accepted or not challenged. Lefties bending over backwards to Islamists not to appear racist def didn't help though. I suspect some people migrated or cycled from RESPECT into labour.

 

[J Ed]

The RESPECT def allowed anti-semitism a front door into wider coalition or organisational politics in terms of formal representative stuff - but maybe that was a result of a wider existing culture where anti-semitism was accepted or not challenged. Lefties bending over backwards to Islamists not to appear racist def didn't help though. I suspect some people migrated or cycled from RESPECT into labour.

The fact we are talking about this at all is because of Yvonne Ridley, who stood as a candidate for Respect in Rotherham.

 

[Knotted]

anyone who knows anything about anti-semtism would spot it immediately - its straight out of the same playbook deployed by the nazis and others before them. Corbyn -as a life long socialist and anti-racist campaigner - should have known this. Its pretty shocking that he looked at it and wrote the supportive message - rather than one that said - "that is a piece of vile anti-semitism - you should be ashamed of yourself"
Im pretty sure the image had been doing the rounds before the mural - it would be more credible if the stoner twat who painted it hadn't realised what it was.

I think you have to see the conspiracy theory tropes and know that they link to anti-semitism. If you know about this stuff you know about it. I'm disappointed but not too surprised Corbyn didn't see it. I don't think it's a matter of becoming blind to this sort of thing through over exposure, it's about not being part of a political culture that instinctively and actively opposes these kooks.