19force8
For the avoidance of faith
Those trousers cost barely a quarter the price of one of Cameron's or Osbourne's many suits. Yet somehow they weren't pilloried for their profligacy. Strange the double standards we take for granted.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
- Thread starter hash tag
- Start date
newbie
undisambiguated
I don't think the specifics of the baggage are an issue. It's old stuff. But I do think they illustrate something about Corbyn. That he was content to eke out a career on Labour's back benches whilst at the same time touring the lefty circuit of causes.
Y'know? being part of the Labour Party which when in government did the Iraq War whilst Corbyn did his Hamas/Hezbollah thing. (As an example)
There's something that rubs wrong there. Something about having your cake and eating it (though, in fairness what else are you supposed t do with cake?). Something he had in common with a lot of the left of the 80s imo.
I'm struggling to put my finger on it. In the case of many of his type I've encountered I could dismiss it as "hobbyism", but in the case of Corbyn he carved a career out it.
It's not that I don't think he's genuine. I think he probably is.
Im rambling, I know
TL; DR All this baggage reminds me of why I never liked the 80s style Labour Left.
that's benefit of hindsight isn't it? It wasn't until the end of the 80s that we got the ability to bicker electronically about politics, and that wasn't in real time. Before that there was one-to-many press and TV plus circulating mags, pamphlets etc. and people you knew. Yet day by day for those of us on the left positions had to be taken, with incomplete information and debate that encompassed views far less diverse or knowledgeable than on here, now, today and with far, far less fact checking capability.
Just as now, day by day you'd have to take a position: do you or do you not support Troops Out or before that BWNIC? Do you welcome the 40-day rolling demonstrations which led to the overthrow of the Shah or endorse the British government sending him arms; do you support those organising as female, as gay, as black people to discuss liberation and oppose the specific oppressions they identify? and so on, through miners, nukes, the Middle East, etc etc all the way through to foxes.
The cumulative effect of those personal standpoints can be judged for the collective consequences 30 years down the line. We can now get a handle on the outcome of the Troubles, the Iranian revolution and identity politics. With hindsight some positions stand the test of time but to those who merely read about it all as history, some may look foolishly naive and some entirely wrong.
For most of us our contribution was minor and can be rolled up into the collective outcome: for someone like Corbyn (who had more information and better contacts than most) a position he took on a specific issue at a particular time can be stripped of context and weaponised, yet at that time, that hour, that day, it appeared a logical response to the events. And by and large insignificant leftists like me, with little ideological commitment to either parliamentary democracy or the LP felt he was one of the very few who articulated anything close to what we felt. (I've no idea how old you are, but if you weren't an adult through the 80s I can't begin to tell you how bleak it was being on the left back then).
He can be hung out to dry on what he said and did 30 years ago because he was an MP and prominent. Some of it appears dilettante, some downright misguided, some merely leaving hostages to fortune. And I can well understand that may make us/him appear hobbyist because so much of it was futile. The same can, of course, be said for pretty much all the dissident politics of the 90s and naughties, though there were never really MPs who really stood with and articulated the standpoints of those involved in the way that Corbyn did for an earlier cohort of dissidents. So yes, he's a careerist LP hack who never resigned when those of us who never joined, and those who did resign thought he should have done (on issue after issue). He, or rather what he represents, is the best hope for (what might be called) 'the left' in all those years and more. Nothing that has come since the 80s left has created a longlasting impact.
TL; DR I get that but you had to be there
mikey mikey
Active Member
IFS to voters: you have a choice between the 'undeliverable' or 'unworkable'
There you go. Nuanced IFS tells us that we can't make billionaires and corporations pay tax. Don't shoot the Guardian messenger.
There you go. Nuanced IFS tells us that we can't make billionaires and corporations pay tax. Don't shoot the Guardian messenger.
cantsin
Well-Known Member
I don't think the specifics of the baggage are an issue. It's old stuff. But I do think they illustrate something about Corbyn. That he was content to eke out a career on Labour's back benches whilst at the same time touring the lefty circuit of causes.
Y'know? being part of the Labour Party which when in government did the Iraq War whilst Corbyn did his Hamas/Hezbollah thing. (As an example)
There's something that rubs wrong there. Something about having your cake and eating it (though, in fairness what else are you supposed t do with cake?). Something he had in common with a lot of the left of the 80s imo.
I'm struggling to put my finger on it. In the case of many of his type I've encountered I could dismiss it as "hobbyism", but in the case of Corbyn he carved a career out it.
It's not that I don't think he's genuine. I think he probably is.
Im rambling, I know
TL; DR All this baggage reminds me of why I never liked the 80s style Labour Left.
Think you have a point here - on a personal / micro basis, along with couple of mates, ( who are more accepting / committed ) have been getting involved with the local LP, a lovely bunch tbf, but I know the score, and feel a bit bad sometimes about lack of real conviction on my part amongst all those committed members - it is a quasi-hobby for me, and partial,lazy substitution for real activism / meaningful activity.
Scaled all the way up, suspect Corbo knows the reality of LPs actual potential to be at centre of transformative change - doubt that his longstanding, continual engagement with the extra parliamentary left is a simple marriage of convenience
Last edited:
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
It's become a fascinating election
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I find this a poor argument. Sure women endure double standards, but she has been a key player in a Government of austerity and general unkindness. Her repulsive fashion taste, which is purely the exercise of spending money for cachet (no £100, £200 even £300 strides available?) sits very poorly with her crocodile tears for the 'just about managing'. Her £900 trousers set her apart from other women, so bollocks to her, her trousers and her nasty shoes.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Evidence pls for £4k suits
The complete contrast between the sure-footedness of the campaign with the apparent shambles of the party in parliament has been the most interesting thing imo.I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
is at the helm of a pretty remarkable election turnaround.
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
is at the helm of a pretty remarkable election turnaround.
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
What has been remarkable is how quickly no one gives a fuck about Brexit anymore. It is settled really, the EU won't negotiate on much, so it's all done.
As a consequence it's back to domestic politics and the Tories have produced a stinker of an offer. Vote for a rabbit in the headlights for 'stability'. It's easy to forget with all the Westminster noise that most people dislike the Tories. It's game on.
binka
!!!!!!!!!
I have remain friends on facebook who for the last year have posted almost daily about brexit. People who I might have expected to be tempted by the lib dems - I completely misjudged them and they are now posting daily about supporting Corbyn instead
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
The same
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
is at the helm of a pretty remarkable election turnaround.
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
I think people are slightly more willing to vote for substance over style than they are generally given credit for, provided they are given some intelligible substance to vote on.
But the remarkable thing, really, is the Tory turnaround in the wrong direction. I think it's actually testimony to Corbyn's shortcomings that Labour are not pummeling them already.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I expected this to be the Brexit election when it was called, but I think I may have had a misleading impression of how much of a motivation that would be for people. It's not that people are not bothered, but I think a lot of people are probably on or close to the fence with it, or just confused about it, and so easily distracted by issues where they can more easily have a clear opinion.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Cameron bought bespoke not of the rack, so it's difficult to make price comparisons. However,
Theresa May's £995 leather trousers sparked debate, but David Cameron's suits cost far more
Not £4000, but substantially more than those trousers.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I was wondering/rambline about this, on the Can Corbyn Win thread:I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
is at the helm of a pretty remarkable election turnaround.
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
More concisely... I suspect the Labour surge is fragile. They haven't suddenly become a competent united party with a leader who is seen as a plausible PM. Its as if Labour were so far behind and out of the game that they are now getting support as a protest vote rather than as a potential government. Labour's strength amongst the young is both interesting and important for the future but will be hit by registration/non voting by the same people. I'm not sure if the shy tories thing from the last election is still in play as well. Interesting as things are I'm guessing the tories have something like a 12-15% 'natural' or underlying lead.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. But when the tories start attacking pensioners, and they are attacking pensioners, they will receive fewer votes from that section of the electorate which is most likely to vote.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yeah, that was the single most stupid thing they've done so far. Either outright stupidity or they felt they were so far ahead they could afford to piss off the 'grey vote'.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not to mention everything in the tory manifesto is negative, whereas so much of the labour one is positive. I think there's a lot if people shy to say they back corbyn. I think that the parliamentary arithmetic very much against labour: but it may be an election to use as a stepping stone. If the tories win with a fewer than 20 majority I think we'll be back to the polls before 2022.
tommers
Fuck it, it's fine.
I hope people will indulge my ramblings...
I'm trying to disentangle how someone who
is at the helm of a pretty remarkable election turnaround.
- Labour voters I know who have no axe to grind describe as "a complete twat" and an "utter bellend".
- Represents the epitome of the defeated 80s Labour Left.
- and faces continual character dismantling in the media from all sides
It's become a fascinating election
I think it's because he is genuine, consistent and the antithesis of everything that people hate about politicians. Maybe after years of smarmy twats on both sides making stupid decisions about war, the economy etc etc people are ready for something different?
Who knows. But just imagine how funny it will be if they win. Lots of humble pie being eaten by pretty much everybody involved with politics - from the PLP to the Tories to journalists. It'll be hilarious.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Yes. But I doubt in enough numbers to matter.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
A vote share above 35% - and a tory majority of under 50 - would be a pretty decent result for corbyn. Be hard for the labour right to argue - no no we need a "moderate" candidate doing photo ops (the ed stone) and mouthing soundbites (hell yeah - im tough enough!) would have won it. Wont stop them trying of course.
They were assuming that this election would see the humiliation of corbyn and his policies and they could smugly say "I told you so" and have the grown ups back in charge. Now they must be looking at the polls and gnashing their teeth as much as the tories.
Maybe labour should adopt the slogan "Vote for us - and make Tony Blair Cry!"
They were assuming that this election would see the humiliation of corbyn and his policies and they could smugly say "I told you so" and have the grown ups back in charge. Now they must be looking at the polls and gnashing their teeth as much as the tories.
Maybe labour should adopt the slogan "Vote for us - and make Tony Blair Cry!"
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
mikey mikey
Active Member
Oh, indeed they will. have read comments to the tune of: Dan/Keir/Yvette/Liz would be in the lead cos May is so bad. Most certainly there will be a call for Jeremy to resign as leader and for a "moderate" to take over "cos we'd av wun it".
If you mention this to a "don't-call-me-moderate", they may either claim you're getting your excuses in early, or deny there is anything resembling a Right within the Labour Party. Or both.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I confess, I like dozens of others on this forum have been sussed out. I am a member of Progress, I voted for Liz Kendall and I have a signed copy of Giddens' Third Way on my bedside table which sits next to my favourite mug, the 'controls on immigration' one from the 2015 election. My favourite political leaders at the moment are Trudeau and Macron, my main political issue is Brexit, and I think that wanting to withdraw from NATO is racist or something.
mikey mikey
Active Member
Wasn't talking about you or even folks on this forum, JEd. FFS put me on ignore and/or sod off.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
I think anyone who thinks Corbyn is especially genuine and consistent would be in for a rapid disillusionment should he get elected.
He certainly has some very fine values around solidarity, but he is also quite righteous. The system is way bigger than him though and he will eventually do things that are unpopular. Will he own them with honesty?
But yes, it would be brilliant and immensely funny if he won, after Tories, Trump, Brexit, everything, plain hilarious.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
Cameron's suit was uniform for his job, to exude well fitting competence when representing party and country. Theresa's clothes are 'look how much these cost' labels.
Nevertheless you don't need an excuse for attacking Dave for being a posh, smug bastard and you don't need to make one for May either.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
but you can still get a decent one for less than £3k though.
Similar threads
