Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Combustible]

If they'd indicated they'd be putting a 3 line whip in place to oppose the final bill if no amendments were included, and fighting to amend it through the lords there's a fair chance that they'd have either got May to concede to avoid losing a vote, or got enough tories to either abstain or vote with them to get the amendment passed.

Why on earth would May make concessions to prevent Labour going on record as trying to block the implementation of the referendum result.

 

[rutabowa]

Why on earth would May make concessions to prevent Labour going on record as trying to block the implementation of the referendum result.

Yeh exactly, as far as I can see it would have had zero chance of accomplishing anything at all if they had voted against, but it would have been a massive "fuck you" to everyone who voted leave. Which I think is why maybe some people wanted them to do it but it is hardly very constructive.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why on earth would May make concessions to prevent Labour going on record as trying to block the implementation of the referendum result.

free spirit's analysis more often wishful thinking than based in concrete reality.

 

[Mr Moose]

It wasn't democratic and the country did not make the decision

Labour can't really argue this. Democracy is flawed for sure and the Brexit debate was at a very low level, but Labour relies on the same 'democracy' to gain power. So it has to respect it.

It would be legitimate to argue on behalf of the 48% but given Labour's base and own divisions on the issue would it really be practical?

 

[Sue]

Feel completely unengaged by the whole Article 50 debates and votes as it all just feels like tinkering around the edges (and I'm not even clear what these edges are). Suspect I'm not alone in this.

 

[gosub]

Labour can't really argue this. Democracy is flawed for sure and the Brexit debate was at a very low level, but Labour relies on the same 'democracy' to gain power. So it has to respect it.

It would be legitimate to argue on behalf of the 48% but given Labour's base and own divisions on the issue would it really be practical?

Government doesn't normally spend millions putting out a leaflet telling people which way to vote in an election

 

[rutabowa]

Government doesn't normally spend millions putting out a leaflet telling people which way to vote in an election

er whut yeah they do

 

[Kesher]

Labour can't really argue this. Democracy is flawed for sure and the Brexit debate was at a very low level, but Labour relies on the same 'democracy' to gain power. So it has to respect it.

It would be legitimate to argue on behalf of the 48% but given Labour's base and own divisions on the issue would it really be practical?

The Brexit referendum was not democractic.

Also (for example) an Australian citizen (Commonwealth) on a two year working holiday visa in the UK was eligible to vote in the referendum; but an EU citizen who was resident in the UK was not eligible even if they had been here a lot longer.

I think it would have been practical because amongst those who voted leave would be electorate who will have seen that they have been lied to or are open to being shown that they have been lied to eg: no access to single market, no 350 million a week for NHS
,

 

[rutabowa]

The Brexit referendum was not democractic.

ah well your link title alone is enough to convince me.

 

[Wilf]

The Brexit referendum was not democractic.

That article is dreadful. One of the worst post-brexit things I've seen.

 

[killer b]

this twitter thread discusses the insane complexity of contemporary electoral politics - worth a read.

 

[free spirit]

Why on earth would May make concessions to prevent Labour going on record as trying to block the implementation of the referendum result.

They'd be on the record as refusing to grant May the right to negotiate whatever version of Brexit she wanted to without the rest of parliament having any say in the matter.

The referendum didn't say what version of brexit people were voting for, not that the Prime Minister would be left to negotiate the final terms without either Parliament of the British people having any further say in it.

As long as it was pitched as 'we will support the bill, but only with this amendment to ensure that Parliament get's a proper say on the final deal' I don't see why anyone leave or remain would have anything to complain about. A key point of the Leave argument being to bring decisions back to the UK parliament, not to have a prime minister using the result to justify ignoring parliament entirely.

 

[ska invita]

this twitter thread discusses the insane complexity of contemporary electoral politics - worth a read.

includes a link for this Britain’s two-party system is heading for multiple splits
not quite sure what precisely open v closed as opposed to left v right means, but you get a gist.

...redsquirrel asked the other day how much UKIP's soft vote might be hardening up....I guess it would need to for it to really go four ways...i think it will....UKIP arent treated like the BNP (by the media, and therefore by voters), though UKIP is basically a British nationalist party....actually an English nationalist party. I think UKIP vote will harden, despite losing voters back to Tories and Farage (hopefully) disappearing before too long.

That link suggests this will lead to growing pressure for proportional representation... I think thats probably true

 

[Mr Moose]

Government doesn't normally spend millions putting out a leaflet telling people which way to vote in an election

I'm just saying Labour can't argue it. They can't claim 17m people winning a vote is somehow undemocratic when they would bite your hand off to govern off 12m.

 

[The39thStep]

includes a link for this Britain’s two-party system is heading for multiple splits
not quite sure what precisely open v closed as opposed to left v right means, but you get a gist.

...redsquirrel asked the other day how much UKIP's soft vote might be hardening up....I guess it would need to for it to really go four ways...i think it will....UKIP arent treated like the BNP (by the media, and therefore by voters), though UKIP is basically a British nationalist party....actually an English nationalist party. I think UKIP vote will harden, despite losing voters back to Tories and Farage (hopefully) disappearing before too long.

That link suggests this will lead to growing pressure for proportional representation... I think thats probably true

Not convinced about any pressure for proportional representation ,if anything I think there may be more of a sentiment for regionalism .

 

[ska invita]

Not convinced about any pressure for proportional representation ,if anything I think there may be more of a sentiment for regionalism .

DOnt want to derail too much, but lets say elections become increasingly 4 way with less of a clear winner, it will become harder to get a majority, there'll be more coalitions and horse trading, and it will be a more open door to push on by PR advocates.....Thats could be twenty years in the making, but still

 

[The39thStep]

DOnt want to derail too much, but lets say elections become increasingly 4 way with less of a clear winner, it will become harder to get a majority, there'll be more coalitions and horse trading, and it will be a more open door to push on by PR advocates.....Thats could be twenty years in the making, but still

It's a possibility but I think the revolt against what is seen a London based political elite could also find its way into regionalism. Who knows , PR might assist any smaller parties that go in that direction.

 

[redsquirrel]

free spirit's analysis more often wishful thinking than based in concrete reality.

This is the same poster currently arguing that Labour should block A50 and cut themselves who claimed that the LibDems had no choice but to go into coalition with the Tories.

that was all when there was at least the hope of doing a better deal with labour. It appears I knew the lib dems better than you, but you knew the labour party better than me, as I actually thought the labour party would do what it took to keep the tories out of power. Instead they chose your route of ensuring the lib dems had fuck all option other than to allow the tories into power even though that wasn't our preferred option.


you may also be right about the potentialy for an anti-tory majority in a new election focussed around labour, with the lib dems being squeezed out now that labour have demonstrated that they won't work with us. Seeing as how the labour party's just fucked us off though, you're having a fucking laugh if you expect the lib dems to go for that option either.


it's a shit state of a affairs, and I'm gutted that a deal couldn't be worked out between labour, the lib dems and others, but now that's apparently not a possibility, I'll not be happy about it, but won't blame the MP's for whatever they end up deciding.


I'll not forget that labour would prefer a tory government than to work with the lib dems though.

Anyway he can be happy now, his new party is propping up his old one.

 

[rutabowa]

I reckon labour needs to use this as their new theme song, votes are gonna roll in

 

[Kaka Tim]

Jess "stab him in the front" Phillips being fluffed mightily by the graun here. I smell a leadership bid coming.

Jess Phillips: ‘I never felt scared in my old job. As an MP, I feel it every day’

 

[Artaxerxes]

Jess "stab him in the front" Phillips being fluffed mightily by the graun here. I smell a leadership bid coming.

Jess Phillips: ‘I never felt scared in my old job. As an MP, I feel it every day’

She can fuck off.

 

[Raheem]

She can fuck off.

She won't, though.

 

[cantsin]

Jess "stab him in the front" Phillips being fluffed mightily by the graun here. I smell a leadership bid coming.

Jess Phillips: ‘I never felt scared in my old job. As an MP, I feel it every day’

she's far too flakey / full of hot air for any shot at the leadership - members won't forget her attacks on Corbyn either

 

[teqniq]

Meanwhile rent boy is touting Clive Lewis as a future leader.

Could Clive Lewis be the next Labour leader?

 

[DotCommunist]

Jess "stab him in the front" Phillips being fluffed mightily by the graun here. I smell a leadership bid coming.

Jess Phillips: ‘I never felt scared in my old job. As an MP, I feel it every day’

how long before theres a bronze statue of joe cox erected in the lobby of the commons for MPs to genuflect towards

 

[killer b]

this is a good article, believe it or not

Labour in crisis: Can the party reconnect with its heartland?

 

[DotCommunist]

it is, too many decent quotes to pick out lots but this one:

Care workers, refuse collectors, bus drivers and cleaners are doing the humble, under-appreciated jobs that are fundamental to collective wellbeing. But the cult of outsourcing and the privatisation of the public sphere has meant that the delivery of these public goods has largely become a profit-driven, high-stress, low-pay endeavour.

is spot on

 

[Red Cat]

it is, too many decent quotes to pick out lots but this one:

is spot on

I think it becomes private not only in the sense of profit-making, but private work in the sense that it becomes unseen, no longer part of public thinking, discussion or decision making.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think it becomes private not only in the sense of profit-making, but private work in the sense that it becomes unseen, no longer part of public thinking, discussion or decision making.

yes, untill you get the odd scandal about care home abuses going on, you don't hear much. The unseen. This goes for distro warehouses nearly literally given the 6-2 2-10 10-6 shift patterns. 9 to fivers don't see much of these people outside of social events, pub visits with mates on those patterns etc.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

this is a good article, believe it or not

Labour in crisis: Can the party reconnect with its heartland?

A good article but deeply depressing. Labour has not only to reconnect with it's heartland, but with millions of voters who are not their natural supporters as well if they are to stop the tories from ruling for further decade and beyond. Can't see it myself.