Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[treelover]

If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia

If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia | Jonathan Freedland

Freedland has a go at the STWC, Stoppers or 'Stop Some Wars'

 

[J Ed]

Freedland has a go at the STWC, Stoppers or 'Stop Some Wars'

This argument is silly too, I think that the STWC argument that they focus on UK and NATO wars because they can actually have some influence on them is reasonable enough. I notice that Freedland doesn't refer to US/UK backing of Saudi Arabia's murderous campaign in Yemen in which the Saudis have been using the same tactics he talks about the Russians using.

If Freedland wants to protest outside the Russian embassy then he should go and do it instead of concern trolling other people, it's not as if they don't happen.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This argument is silly too, I think that the STWC argument that they focus on UK and NATO wars because they can actually have some influence on them is reasonable enough. I notice that Freedland doesn't refer to US/UK backing of Saudi Arabia's murderous campaign in Yemen in which the Saudis have been using the same tactics he talks about the Russians using.

If Freedland wants to protest outside the Russian embassy then he should go and do it instead of concern trolling other people, it's not as if they don't happen.

Totally agree. That said, the stwc could have responded better. Surely the correct response would be that they are a British group that campaigns to stop Britain's wars, but that they have an internationalist outlook and of course work closely with similar groups around the world trying to stop their governments' wars.

 

[treelover]

Nineham and co are cultists, disgusting people

 

[J Ed]

Nineham and co are cultists, disgusting people

Yea, I don't like them either but Freedland is a dick too

 

[J Ed]

Both sides will cheer on a hospital getting bombed as long as it's the right hospital

 

[DownwardDog]

This argument is silly too, I think that the STWC argument that they focus on UK and NATO wars because they can actually have some influence on them is reasonable enough.

They are quite interested in Israel's wars and they don't exactly have a great deal of capacity to influence those.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They are quite interested in Israel's wars and they don't exactly have a great deal of capacity to influence those.

Don't know enough about stwc tbh, but assuming you're right, that's a bit of a shame. There is a place for a coalition that focuses only on Britain and Britain's actions. However, there could be another justification, if it were broadened to the actions of Britain's allies.

Problem when an action group broadens to become about everything. I can see the temptation, but it can be a mistake. The strength of effective NGOs can be their self-imposed limitations, the things they don't say even though they'd like to. Red Cross is the extreme eg of that, but it also applies to Amnesty.

 

[J Ed]

They are quite interested in Israel's wars and they don't exactly have a great deal of capacity to influence those.

Politicians in Britain and the US have a pretty significant amount of influence over Israel.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Politicians in Britain and the US have a pretty significant amount of influence over Israel.

You could extend it to 'everyone the UK sells arms to'. That doesn't narrow things down much though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Politicians in Britain and the US have a pretty significant amount of influence over Israel.

Thing is, and forgive me as I'm pretty ignorant about stwc generally, but what exactly are they trying to achieve now? It seems fuzzy to me.

What I'd like them to do is to build a mass-movement against war in the UK. Are they doing that, or trying to do that?

 

[DownwardDog]

Thing is, and forgive me as I'm pretty ignorant about stwc generally, but what exactly are they trying to achieve now? It seems fuzzy to me.

It's not fuzzy at all. Nineham was completely honest about it on R4. The purpose of StWC is to "oppose the West".

 

[cantsin]

Politicians in Britain and the US have a pretty significant amount of influence over Israel.

U.S. Provides $4bn military ' aid' to Israel p.a. I.i.r.c.

 

[kebabking]

Politicians in Britain and the US have a pretty significant amount of influence over Israel.

British politicians have pretty much no influence over Israel, and British politicians trying to influence Israel via the US government have even less.

They buy some of our stuff, not much, but some, and we buy stuff from them - the difference however is that we buy stuff from them that we can't get elsewhere and that is at the top end of whats available. As a rule its non-lethal stuff like ECM gear, body armour and helmets, surveillance and targeting systems, but during the Afghanistan war they provided a missile system called Spike NLOS from their own war stocks - we used it to attack Taliban IED laying teams that we had spotted from aircraft. The advantage it had over other systems was that it had a much smaller warhead - something like a tenth of the size of the GMLRS warhead which we would have used otherwise - which meant that the chances of non-Taliban casualties was much reduced.

The relationship is friendly, but not really friends - we provide them with snapshot int and that is returned, but neither side gives the other a great stream of int: they don't trust us and we don't trust them, and our politicians don't want to have a relationship they can be criticised for, and their politicians don't want to have to listen to our politicians having a go at them.

It's a working relationship, not a close one, and it gives UK politicians no real influence - and if we want to be honest about it, that suits UK politicians just fine.

 

[free spirit]

The key difference in UK terms between Russia and Israel as targets for protest is that the UK government has historically and continues to be broadly supportive of Israeli security policy (while occasionally criticising some aspect of it), whereas for Russia the UK government is already broadly opposed to Russian foreign policy, and is already enforcing sanctions against Russia.

STWC's main influence (if any) is over UK government position on other country's actions, rather than being able to directly influence that country.

The STWC position seems pretty consistent to me, and Borris Johnson is playing a very dangerous game by calling for protests outside the RUssian Embassy - at least if he want's UK embassies to be able to function safely without being surrounded by crowds of hostile protestors.

 

[treelover]

You give this organisation headed by cynical and disingenuous SWP retreads, German, Rees, Nineham, any credibility?

 

[killer b]

Have to say, I'd never have the faintest idea what Nineham, German and Rees were up to if you didn't keep us up to date TL. It's an important public service you're doing them.

 

[treelover]

Pleased to do so, i had never heard of them till the European Social Forums, and saw first hand how they operate

Nineham was on the Today Programme, thousands of supporters, etc, they still have some influence.

 

[Casually Red]

It's not fuzzy at all. Nineham was completely honest about it on R4. The purpose of StWC is to "oppose the West".

Israel is a western colony to all intents and purposes. It wants to be considered part of Europe . Plays in European football leagues, Eurovision . All that stuff. It's also got a lot of vocal and influential supporters in the Uk . Supporters in very high places and it's fair game for their line to be challenged.

 

[Casually Red]

The key difference in UK terms between Russia and Israel as targets for protest is that the UK government has historically and continues to be broadly supportive of Israeli security policy (while occasionally criticising some aspect of it), whereas for Russia the UK government is already broadly opposed to Russian foreign policy, and is already enforcing sanctions against Russia.

STWC's main influence (if any) is over UK government position on other country's actions, rather than being able to directly influence that country.

The STWC position seems pretty consistent to me, and Borris Johnson is playing a very dangerous game by calling for protests outside the RUssian Embassy - at least if he want's UK embassies to be able to function safely without being surrounded by crowds of hostile protestors.

It's a diplomatic gaffe. A serious blunder. From a fucking asshole engaging in whataboutery while grandstanding For the media . That toffee nosed show pony is also making these calls for protests against a backdrop of British generals being publicly instructed to come up with plans for potential military attacks against Russian forces and their allies. It's very dangerous talk that could backfire . and Labour are every bit as bad, invoking the besainted Jo Cox and her warmongering to back up Johnsons nonsense .

Does he not stop for a second to consider what might actually happen if Putin urged the Russian people , and those elsewhere who are pro Russian..Serbs, Belarus etc to start retaliatory protests at British embassies ? It's a damn sight more certain people would actually listen to him. And the response would be a bit more than some lone hippy in pink chinos .

 

[krtek a houby]

That can be done very effectively via the ballot box. Labour needs to get its act together first though.

Indeed. They need to ditch the tory lite, Blairite tendency.

 

[ska invita]

This hasnt been posted has it? Secret recording of Paul mason expressing the limitations of Corby and suggesting Clive Lewis would be the best next replacement for him when the time comes.....

 

[J Ed]

This hasnt been posted has it? Secret recording of Paul mason expressing the limitations of Corby and suggesting Clive Lewis would be the best next replacement for him when the time comes.....

People in that milieu have been fairly open about this sort of medium term plan for ages, nothing new in this recording really.

 

[Pickman's model]

Pleased to do so, i had never heard of them till the European Social Forums, and saw first hand how they operate

Nineham was on the Today Programme, thousands of supporters, etc, they still have some influence.

millions of pms of support all over again

 

[ska invita]

People in that milieu have been fairly open about this sort of medium term plan for ages, nothing new in this recording really.

I agree...its been billed as an expose, a bit embarrassing maybe, but interesting about Clive Lewis...Ive seen him interviewed once as a non-coup-er

 

[Pickman's model]

as long as it's clive lewis and not clive derby lewis.

 

[J Ed]

I agree...its been billed as an expose, a bit embarrassing maybe, but interesting about Clive Lewis...Ive seen him interviewed once as a non-coup-er

Clive Lewis is the usual presumed successor candidate in the plan, Louise Haigh came up a lot too before she threw her lot in with the coup gang.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I agree...its been billed as an expose, a bit embarrassing maybe, but interesting about Clive Lewis...Ive seen him interviewed once as a non-coup-er

Why is it being considered an expose? It's a man saying something not particularly interesting over dinner.

 

[ska invita]

Why is it being considered an expose? It's a man saying something not particularly interesting over dinner.

Traitor to corby

 

[ViolentPanda]

People in that milieu have been fairly open about this sort of medium term plan for ages, nothing new in this recording really.

As I've said previously - months ago - I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's Corbyn's plan too.