Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[free spirit]

an alternative take on that being that zionists are using the charge of anti-semitism to deter and deflect legit criticism of Israeli policies and the activities of their supporters here that help give them political cover for their actions, as well as to destroy the BDS movement that was gaining traction from the left and starting to get into a position where it could start to hurt Israel economically.

Alongside some level of genuine anti-semitic sentiment that has crept in particularly via the CTer route where stuff about the Rothschilds supposed ownership of central banks etc has sucked in some of the more gullible.

 

[James McFadden]

What is a Zionist these days? Do we have a definition we can work with? Seems to have morphed into 'anyone not actively pro-palestinian'. Means nothing more precise than 'liberal' any more?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What is a Zionist these days? Do we have a definition we can work with? Seems to have morphed into 'anyone not actively pro-palestinian'. Means nothing more precise than 'liberal' any more?

I'd have thought that was quite straightforward. It is someone who believes that there needs to be a Jewish state - in the words of the 1917 Balfour declaration, 'a national home for the Jewish people'.

Seems quite a precise, well-defined term to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd have thought that was quite straightforward. It is someone who believes that there needs to be a Jewish state - in the words of the 1917 Balfour declaration, 'a national home for the Jewish people'.

yes. you would believe it was quite straightforward, when it is of course more complicated than that.

 

[teqniq]

Not quite so straightforward, perhaps. There's the loony tunes 'end times' christians as well.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not quite so straightforward, perhaps. There's the loony tunes 'end times' christians as well.

There are the ultra-orthodox anti-Zionist 'end times' Jews as well, for that matter.

Still don't think that dilutes the term. If anything it merely reinforces the point that to be anti-Zionist is not to be confused with being anti-Jewish.

Also quite possible and reasonable to be neither Zionist nor anti-Zionist, of course.

 

[frogwoman]

No its not but some people come out with any old antisemitic shit referring to zionists and then say its not antisemitic cos they said zionism instead of jew.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No its not but some people come out with any old antisemitic shit referring to zionists and then say its not antisemitic cos they said zionism instead of jew.

Yep, very certainly. That still doesn't change what Zionism means, though. And antisemites hiding behind anti-Zionist language are pretty easy to spot ime. David Icke, for instance.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, very certainly. That still doesn't change what Zionism means, though. And antisemites hiding behind anti-Zionist language are pretty easy to spot ime. David Icke, for instance.

They often defend themselves from the charge of antisemitism using that argument though.

'I didnt say jews controlled the federal reserve, i said zionists did'

 

[butchersapron]

Zionist isn't really the problematical term here. Anti-zionist is. What sort of politics takes on as a founding principle nor just opposition to the formal political zionism but demands the adoption of an aggressive whole world view that sees their enemies hand behind things far beyond the remit of regional interest, into almost a trans-historical universal nature.

Opposition to zionism within a wider political propect and worldview that analyses and examines how and why zionism came to exist and then places that within wider understanding of how modern capital-states works ona higher/wider level = great. Anti-zionism as your primary political character = rubbish.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They often defend themselves from the charge of antisemitism using that argument though.

'I didnt say jews controlled the federal reserve, i said zionists did'

Yes. Conversely, the Israeli state also uses this tactic in reverse - labelling any criticism of Israel that has an anti-Zionist angle to it antisemitic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Zionist isn't really the problematical term here. Anti-zionist is. What sort of politics takes on as a founding principle nor just opposition to the formal political zionism but demands the adoption of an aggressive whole world view that sees their enemies hand behind things far beyond the remit of regional interest, into almost a trans-historical universal nature.

Opposition to zionism within a wider political propect and worldview that analyses and examines how and why zionism came to exist and then places that within wider understanding of how modern capital-states works ona higher/wider level = great. Anti-zionism as your primary political character = rubbish.

Yep, well-made point. If someone asks me if I'm anti-Zionist, I certainly have to answer 'yes'. But if they ask me if I'm 'an anti-Zionist', I need to clarify further what they mean by that 'an'.

 

[James McFadden]

I'd have thought that was quite straightforward. It is someone who believes that there needs to be a Jewish state - in the words of the 1917 Balfour declaration, 'a national home for the Jewish people'.

Seems quite a precise, well-defined term to me.

And you're aware of the concept of the etymological fallacy?

Eta: Your definition, now I read it again, relies on a quote from a 'declaration' which doesn't contain the term 'Zionist'.

 

[James McFadden]

And you're aware of the concept of the etymological fallacy?

Eta: Your definition, now I read it again, relies on a quote from a 'declaration' which doesn't contain the term 'Zionist'.

Eta2: also, Not sure how you draw equation between 'Jewish State' and 'homeland for Jewish people'. Latter doesn't necessarily involve sovereignty...the term 'British Mandated Palestine' is relevant here. 'Jewish State' does imply sovereignty and further implies that sovereignty will in some sense be Jewish.
Now I come to think of it, your definition is no good at all. Precision needed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Eta2: also, Not sure how you draw equation between 'Jewish State' and 'homeland for Jewish people'. Latter doesn't necessarily involve sovereignty...the term 'British Mandated Palestine' is relevant here. 'Jewish State' does imply sovereignty and further implies that sovereignty will in some sense be Jewish.
Now I come to think of it, your definition is no good at all. Precision needed.

You're misquoting. The quote says 'national home for the Jewish people', not 'homeland'. (The 'national' bit is important - at root, Zionism is a form of Jewish nationalism.) But take out the Balfour bit if you like - Zionism existed before then after all. A belief in the need of a Jewish state, with the term subsequently becoming attached to the political movement whose aim this was.

There's no imprecision there.

ETA:

And there is also absolutely no doubt that Israel was established as this Jewish state. Here are the first few paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence:

The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma'pilim [(Hebrew) - immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation] and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country's inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.

In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.

This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.

The word 'rebuild' is of course crucial here - the idea that the establishment of Israel was the returning to Jews of something that had been taken from them long ago.

There are clearly many layers to Zionism and the various claims to the lands of Israel/Palestine. But the complexity of the issues surrounding it doesn't necessarily make it hard to define.

 

[brogdale]

Chief whip Winterton is already gone; replaced by former CW Nick Brown.
More to come...

 

[bimble]

I'd have thought that was quite straightforward. It is someone who believes that there needs to be a Jewish state

I probably shouldn't touch this with even a very long stick but it seems to me that in common usage lately the Z word has come to be used to describe anyone who does not argue that the country that was created in 1948 ought somehow (in some totally undefined way) to be entirely removed, because it has no 'right to exist' etc. I could be totally wrong that's just my impression.

 

[Pickman's model]

I probably shouldn't touch this with even a very long stick but it seems to me that in common usage lately the Z word has come to be used to describe anyone who does not argue that the country that was created in 1948 ought somehow (in some totally undefined way) to be entirely removed, because it has no 'right to exist' etc. I could be totally wrong that's just my impression.

yeh. again, it's not as straightforward as that.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are clearly many layers to Zionism and the various claims to the lands of Israel/Palestine. But the complexity of the issues surrounding it doesn't necessarily make it hard to define.

yeh. you haven't shown yourself up to the task thus far tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, well-made point. If someone asks me if I'm anti-Zionist, I certainly have to answer 'yes'. But if they ask me if I'm 'an anti-Zionist', I need to clarify further what they mean by that 'an'.

have a pedant point.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. Conversely, the Israeli state also uses this tactic in reverse - labelling any criticism of Israel that has an anti-Zionist angle to it antisemitic.

if, as you claim, a zionist is someone who believes there needs to be a jewish state, then an anti-zionist is someone who does not believe there needs to be a jewish state. now, anyone who believes in the two state solution sees one of those states as jewish and so what they say is not necessarily anti-zionist. i think you'll find the zionist entity labels any criticism of it as anti-semitic, regardless of whether the critic is being anti-zionist or no.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I probably shouldn't touch this with even a very long stick but it seems to me that in common usage lately the Z word has come to be used to describe anyone who does not argue that the country that was created in 1948 ought somehow (in some totally undefined way) to be entirely removed, because it has no 'right to exist' etc. I could be totally wrong that's just my impression.

Various people have called Barack Obama socialist. Do we have to abandon our definition of socialism because of this?

 

[Pickman's model]

Various people have called Barack Obama socialist. Do we have to abandon our definition of socialism because of this?

yes, if it includes someone like b.o.

 

[hash tag]

Only just found this from the weekends papers: Cornelia Parker: I dressed up a statue of Churchill as a Dadaist act

"Jeremy Corbyn makes me angry. He seems vain. He’s enjoying his moment at the expense of the Labour party whose future he is wilfully jeopardising. We, the British public, would love to have an opposition."

 

[frogwoman]

Thing is everyone fucking knows that criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic. What I do have a problem with is people who just add a token mention of Israel to excuse antisemitism. Or explain it by the fact the Israeli government are wankers. You wouldn't fucking use isis as a reason why someone complaining about islamophobia on the left should be ignored, well some people would but a lot of the people doing this shit think they are better than that.

 

[frogwoman]

Every fucking time. Every fucking time it's like waaaa blairites waaaa Israel.

 

[bimble]

^ yes. And remember how we laughed when someone (can't remember who it was now) said that it was the responsibility of all muslim people to explain and denounce the actions of terrorists.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thing is everyone fucking knows that criticism of Israel is not necessarily antisemitic. What I do have a problem with is people who just add a token mention of Israel to excuse antisemitism. Or explain it by the fact the Israeli government are wankers. You wouldn't fucking use isis as a reason why someone complaining about islamophobia on the left should be ignored, well some people would but a lot of the people doing this shit think they are better than that.

One of the things I like about this place. Such people get short-shrift on here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

^ yes. And remember how we laughed when someone (can't remember who it was now) said that it was the responsibility of all muslim people to explain and denounce the actions of terrorists.

If you're talking about on here, a very similar attitude was taken towards Jews and Israel by a poster, Falcon, who was torn to shreds for it.

 

[bimble]

If you're talking about on here, a very similar attitude was taken towards Jews and Israel by a poster, Falcon, who was torn to shreds for it.

No, sorry, wasn't suggesting that someone here said that, I think it was a politician.