Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[redsquirrel]

Is all this a new (or at least revived) thing?

Barring one over-enthusiastic supporter of Palestine I don't recall encountering any noticeable anti-Semitism back in my "activist" days (late 80s to early 00s).

...but then neither conspiracism nor identity politics were really present IME back then.

While I think there's probably more of them than there used to be the other thing is that bloody twitter gives these dicks the type of profile they dream of and with less comeback than they'd get if they made some of these comments in person.

 

[butchersapron]

It's always been there in the background, but has multiplied since 9/11 IME. It's rise is directly related to the rise in popularity of conspiracy theory. I don't think there's many full-blooded anti-semites out there in the radical left, it's more a problem of people uncritically repeating stuff they've heard without understanding it's origin or meaning.

I don't think that's possible. If one side of the internet is that these clowns believe anything they read it and that now they are exposed to more, then it also means they are exposed to the idea and the contention that what they read is anti-semitic. Yet they persist.

 

[bimble]

Maybe barking up a totally weird tree but I've been wondering also about how there used to be large communities of working class Jews, in London for instance in the garment industry etc and that whole demographic where's it gone (I don't know the answer), maybe this is also some small part of what's happened.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's always been there in the background, but has multiplied since 9/11 IME. It's rise is directly related to the rise in popularity of conspiracy theory. I don't think there's many full-blooded anti-semites out there in the radical left, it's more a problem of people uncritically repeating stuff they've heard without understanding it's origin or meaning.

11th September 2001 provided so much instantaneous nourishment to so many cranks, that we'll still be feeling the effects in 15-20 years time. Magazines like Nexus doubled and tripled their circulation in a couple of years, and the appearance of conspiracy theory as a quasi-acceptable mode of questioning of capitalism is - to me - the most worrying development, because it diverts so much energy away from meaningful political activism, and toward circular arguments about who controls what.

 

[Kaka Tim]

True and ive been trying to point this out for years and pretty much given up tbh.

I dont think its been a waste of time froggy. Your well evidenced arguments on here convinced me for one - and im sure im not the only one. Its led to me being far more pro-active in recognising and challenging anti-semitc tropes - often where the left meets conspiracy land.

On the wider point, the response of the left to accusations of anti-antisemitism shouldn't be to deny it and/or resort to "what-about - armenia/rwanda" etc - but to acknowledge just how insidiousness and deep rooted these tropes are and challenge them within its own ranks.
And there is an argument for recognising the Nazi holocaust as a landmark of barbarism - it was a product of a supposedly "superior", modern European state and had its roots in centuries of bigotry and oppression that continues to this day.
It was industrial slaughter, that was deliberately and meticulously planned by people who were highly skilled in logistics, engineering, science, medicine and justified by a people schooled in western philosophy. It committed vast resources to the extermination of an entire people - not because they were a threat or an inconvenience - but because of a complete, pathological hatred that had somehow become the core purpose of an entire nation. Yes - the other peoples thrown into the ovens deserve more recognition, but it was rabid anti-semitism that was rasion d'etre of the whole operation.
So yeah, Jewish people have every fucking right to be offended, dismayed and upset when ignorant twats indulge in anti-Semitic rothchilds/bankers/mossad/troofer/illuminati conspiracy shite or the likes of Livingstone gob off about Hitler and zionism. Recognising this should be inseparable from challenging the brutality of the Israeli state towards the Palestinians - and challenging its own cynical use of the holocaust to silence its critics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe barking up a totally weird tree but I've been wondering also about how there used to be large communities of working class Jews, in London for instance in the garment industry etc and that whole demographic where's it gone (I don't know the answer), maybe this is also some small part of what's happened.

The greatest shift was to Essex, places like Dagenham, Upminster, Basildon, Ilford etc, and that wasn't just Jews from East End communities, but from the likes of Brixton, Fulham, Soho and Streatham too, between about 1960 and the '90s.

 

[existentialist]

Interesting.

I work a lot with group dynamics amongst young people and have observed "tipping points" where the balance of group behaviours can decisively shift after the addition or removal of individual young people.

Edit to add: I also often work with young people who have been "got rid of" from a range of contexts.

I think this is why it's a mistake to assume that the kind of goings-on Labour is experiencing at the moment has any kind of rationality to it! I suspect that the prevailing group dynamic is probably akin to being on a storm-tossed ship, with nobody able to focus on a coherent goal for being flung from side to side and slipping up on other people's sick.

 

[J Ed]

The greatest shift was to Essex, places like Dagenham, Upminster, Basildon, Ilford etc, and that wasn't just Jews from East End communities, but from the likes of Brixton, Fulham, Soho and Streatham too, between about 1960 and the '90s.

Did Jewish people move from the East End and other areas to these areas at the same time that other London populations did?

 

[Treacle Toes]

The greatest shift was to Essex, places like Dagenham, Upminster, Basildon, Ilford etc, and that wasn't just Jews from East End communities, but from the likes of Brixton, Fulham, Soho and Streatham too, between about 1960 and the '90s.

I thought that the movement of Jewish people from East London was also to North London, Golders Green and around/outwards (of London).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did Jewish people move from the East End and other areas to these areas at the same time that other London populations did?

At first - there was a big shift of the general east end populations out to the Essex borders in the '50s - partially documented in Wilmot & Young's "Family & Kinship in East London" - but a sort of "accelerated" Jewish migration in the 60s and 70s that has been attributed partly to the arrival of Bangladeshis and Pakistanis into those areas in those decades, and partly because many families felt that they'd moved up a class - mostly due to their jobs - and the suburban life appealed more than living in the inner city.

 

[bimble]

Did Jewish people move from the East End and other areas to these areas at the same time that other London populations did?

This suggests that the inner city working class jews seem to have moved out to the suburbs faster than their neighbours? (before 1939 it says the bulk of London jews lived in the east end, by the mid 1970s 70% of them were in the suburbs.
(I know nothing about the author or the book just the fruits of a quick google)

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought that the movement of Jewish people from East London was also to North London, Golders Green and around/outwards (of London).

Sparser, and more concentrated on specific areas in Nth London, as far as I could make out. Golders Green though, that was a Jewish enclave even before WW2.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Sparser, and more concentrated on specific areas in Nth London, as far as I could make out. Golders Green though, that was a Jewish enclave even before WW2.

Yeah that makes sense...the tube line extensions also had an influence later on IIRC as it did with all people moving out to 'then' more surburban areas.

 

[co-op]

Maybe barking up a totally weird tree but I've been wondering also about how there used to be large communities of working class Jews, in London for instance in the garment industry etc and that whole demographic where's it gone (I don't know the answer), maybe this is also some small part of what's happened.

Moved up and out, hence the old joke,

Q; what's the difference between the Tailors and Garment-makers Union and the British Union of Psychiatrists?

A. About a generation.

 

[J Ed]

edit: probably not worth sharing even some of the most bizarre stuff on social media on this, it's everywhere for anyone who wants to see it

 

[frogwoman]

It's always been there in the background, but has multiplied since 9/11 IME. It's rise is directly related to the rise in popularity of conspiracy theory. I don't think there's many full-blooded anti-semites out there in the radical left, it's more a problem of people uncritically repeating stuff they've heard without understanding it's origin or meaning.

Exactly. The left isn't full of antisemites, it's full of people who ignore or are ignorant of what antisemitism actually is

 

[Idris2002]

Where's this bollocks from, then?

 

[Benjamin F]

Sparser, and more concentrated on specific areas in Nth London, as far as I could make out. Golders Green though, that was a Jewish enclave even before WW2.

Largest Jewish community isn't in new London of leafy Golders Green but in the East London/Essex borders of GantsHill/Redbridge/Ilford. Mainstream and indeed much of the Jewish Community's own media (Jewish Chronic) always portrays it as the former.

 

[Mr Moose]

Exactly. The left isn't full of antisemites, it's full of people who ignore or are ignorant of what antisemitism actually is

Yes, there is a lazyness of thought about it - it's undisciplined identity politics (which is a jealous politics of others identities) that says 'I must take a side'. I simply can't get my head around the middle east without disliking someone's race or culture.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes, there is a lazyness of thought about it - it's undisciplined identity politics (which is a jealous politics of others identities) that says 'I must take a side'. I simply can't get my head around the middle east without disliking someone's race or culture.

Can you explain this to me please. The only time I ever read comments regarding and insisting on the 'the politics of envy' is from right wing nuts seeking to justify themselves and deny long standing, institutionalised inequalities have a real impact on people's lives... Have I misunderstood you? Does 'jealous politics of other identities' mean something completely different?

 

[Red Cat]

11th September 2001 provided so much instantaneous nourishment to so many cranks, that we'll still be feeling the effects in 15-20 years time. Magazines like Nexus doubled and tripled their circulation in a couple of years, and the appearance of conspiracy theory as a quasi-acceptable mode of questioning of capitalism is - to me - the most worrying development, because it diverts so much energy away from meaningful political activism, and toward circular arguments about who controls what.

I'm very aware that when I talk about politics in a more radical way than a vague kind of socialist one that I may come across as a conspiracy theorist. And that fear makes me more silent than I ought to be.

 

[Mr Moose]

Can you explain this to me please. The only time I ever read comments regarding and insisting on the 'the politics of envy' is from right wing nuts seeking to justify themselves and deny long standing, institutionalised inequalities have a real impact on people's lives... Have I misunderstood you? Does 'jealous politics of other identities' mean something completely different?

I merely mean it can get a bit jealous when everyone is asking has my identity had its due airtime? I'm not saying most people do either, but it can happen.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont think its been a waste of time froggy. Your well evidenced arguments on here convinced me for one - and im sure im not the only one. Its led to me being far more pro-active in recognising and challenging anti-semitc tropes - often where the left meets conspiracy land.

Thanks but I kind of feel like it's been a waste of time tbh when talking about it all too often gets you met with disbelief at best and suspicion and bigoted comments at worst. I suspect there is going to be an even bigger closing of ranks by some given that criticism of antisemites in the left is becoming equated with criticism of corbyns leadership.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I merely mean it can get a bit jealous when everyone is asking has my identity had its due airtime? I'm not saying most people do either, but it can happen.

Do you mean when people are asking/demanding to be heard because they don't feel they been?

Is that jealousy?

Maybe if they are saying well 'such and such' always gets a say it might seem that way but I am not sure that any comparison, if based in truth, is 'fairly' described as jealousy.

Maybe we need an example?

 

[frogwoman]

Thanks but I kind of feel like it's been a waste of time tbh when talking about it all too often gets you met with disbelief at best and suspicion and bigoted comments at worst. I suspect there is going to be an even bigger closing of ranks by some given that criticism of antisemites in the left is becoming equated with criticism of corbyns leadership.

Kaka Tim

 

[treelover]

The Zionist forces that have chosen to weaponise the claims of antisemitism against Labour, will not rest until Jeremy Corbyn in no longer leader...

posted on FB, onward to Victory Comrades

Crazy stuff really.

 

[treelover]

Cann

 

[Kaka Tim]

Thanks but I kind of feel like it's been a waste of time tbh when talking about it all too often gets you met with disbelief at best and suspicion and bigoted comments at worst. I suspect there is going to be an even bigger closing of ranks by some given that criticism of antisemites in the left is becoming equated with criticism of corbyns leadership.

well - we can only do what we can. I think you (and violent panda) identified a lot of antisemitic tropes, particularly within CP stuff, that a lot of people on urban weren't fully aware of. Most of us lefties on here have social media interactions with people in and around momentum - so its a basis for challenging it from people who are generally seen as pro-Palestinian and pro corbyn. Every little helps.

 

[treelover]

Cannibalising begins.

 

[treelover]

Guido is on the case, picking up on all the dodgy memes.


btw, what is interesting much of the worst stuff comes from people at least in their forties, many much older, it doesn't seem to be exercising the younger members, who seem bemused by it all.