Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[DrRingDing]

This is not really correct. The most expensive fares are the walk-up fares and these are regulated by government. The train companies are not allowed to set these as they wish - they are the fares that they agree to provide when they sign up for a franchise. These fares are basically a continuation of the fare structure that was in place before privatisation. It's true they have increased somewhat but that increase is determined by the government and is related to how much they are willing to subsidise the railways. Just as it was before privatisation.

The cheap advance fares are what have been introduced by the "free market". These cheaper-than-the-regulated-fares did not exist before.

I am not defending the current fare structure, because I think it is a mess and not functional for something that should be a public service. However it is not true that the railways operate under some kind of free-for-all. They are very heavily regulated by government and most franchisees have very little room for maneuver. It's a red herring to blame expensive fares on "privatisation". Much more significant is govenment policy. They have the say on what the upper limit of rail fares is. I wish people would concentrate on that rather than making ill informed statements about how rail tickets are priced. If we want cheaper fares then we have to lobby those who make the political decisions that affect the cost of rail travel. This will remain the case if the franchises become nationalised.

*scribbles teuchter's name in undisclosed section of a tatty old black book*

 

[gosub]

It's such a trivial story this that I haven't followed it much. However after 'team corbyn' were forced to admit he walked past empty seats because he wanted 2 seats together it was obvious there was a bit of a game in play. Wants to portray himself as not like the other politicians... film crew... the case for rail nationalisation - come on! In this story he might be up against some almighty cunts, virgin, branson, the press, but let's be honest, he's over egged it for political reasons. He's not Saint Jeremy he's a very naughty boy a career politician who was able to rationalise supporting New Labour for 15 years in Parliament. So it's not impossible he could have been playing a teensy weensy game over this is it?

Yes, but...Its quite a concerted effort to go to, to show he's on the same level as the other politicians, and I don't get how that somehow makes him worse. Not particularly a Corbyn fan, but he's clearly got his enemies riled.

 

[Wilf]

at risk of going off topic from if there was a free seat on a train or not, I wonder what it would have taken for Corbyn to decide that the Labour Party isn't for him? Iraq War - stuck by them, all manner of anti working class policies - stuck by them, anti disabled policies - stuck by them, anti 'scrounger' policies - stuck by them, racist policies - stuck by them, privatisation - stuck by them, tuition fees - stuck by them, probably loads of other stuff too I can't think of off the top of my head. Did he have some sort of line that if the Party crossed it he'd say, right that's it I can't support them or campaign for people to vote for them anymore.

Far from being ultra principled he seems like the worst kind of party hack to me. At least the Blairites believed in what they were doing - he supposedly didn't. But apparently no matter what Labour did and said he was always there time after time to help shore up the left flank - we can't be that bad because I'm still here! Him and McDonnell. And didn't McDonnell claim at one time to be an anti capitalist? Now he finds himself contemplating what's best for business, just like magic

I don't believe there really was any sort of point where Labour could have gone too far for him. I think his idea of socialism is so shrivelled and pathetic that it just amounts to Labour whatever Labour is and does. There's nothing else really. I guess if it ever came to it we'd find that, just like those Old Labour governments that were so great, it'll turn out that Corbyn and co have simply got to bomb someone or attack our living standards or something like that. Making tough choices. Anyway, if I did an interview with Corbyn that's what I'd ask about.

Tend to agree. Fwiw I'd describe myself as an anarchist, certainly an anti-capitalist, so I'm never going to be on board for parliamentary politics. It's not just that it entails a top down model of change but also that you ultimately end up serving the interests of capital and managing the working class. I'm not having a go at anyone, people make their own choices, but I'm surprised at the number of people on the left who have got on board for Corbynism. You end up focusing your energy on a party which, almost certainly isn't going to win, but more to the point doesn't seem to be acting as a catalyst to wider left activity. But that's all me shooting the breeze - again, people make their own choices. What I think the relevant point to make about Corbynism is that it isn't particularly radical or creative in its own right, as a force for parliamentary politics. Obviously he's had his mind on other things, but there's not been much going on with regard to forging links to the working class outside of the party and his vision still seems dominated by 1945.

As discussed, this is indeed a mega thread, probably inspired by the novelty of a genuine soft left (or whatever term you prefer) moving towards control in the Labour Party. He's been given a lot of slack because of the treachery and dishonesty of his opponents, the relentlessness of the attacks - the idiocy of the attacks as well. However I think we should be able to ask serious questions about the whole Corbyn project (and I don't mean about traingate).

 

[Chilli.s]

Last year on a London/Newcastle train I couldn't even find my reserved seat as the train was so busy. Later that weekend a train from Durham was so packed it was not possible to get further into the carriages than the door.

 

[Pickman's model]

Last year on a London/Newcastle train I couldn't even find my reserved seat as the train was so busy. Later that weekend a train from Durham was so packed it was not possible to get further into the carriages than the door.

you should have worn your uniform

 

[Wilf]

Yes, but...Its quite a concerted effort to go to, to show he's on the same level as the other politicians, and I don't get how that somehow makes him worse. Not particularly a Corbyn fan, but he's clearly got his enemies riled.

I agree, of course, about the way he's being attacked. However, in part, with this story he is being like other politicians. It's akin to Cameron cycling to work whilst a car rode behind him with his bags and belongings. I'd only put it at the level of over egging rather than outright deception, but there's certainly an element of dare I say it..... spin.

 

[gosub]

I agree, of course, about the way he's being attacked. However, in part, with this story he is being like other politicians. It's akin to Cameron cycling to work whilst a car rode behind him with his bags and belongings. I'd only put it at the level of over egging rather than outright deception, but there's certainly an element of dare I say it..... spin.

Oh I'd agree with that. He is, shock, horror,a politician

 

[Wilf]

Sorry, throwing in random points here, but at the level of personality and behaviour I can fully understand the easy ride Corbyn has had on this thread. As much as any MP can he seems to have behaved well at a personal level. Certainly in comparison to that other saint, Tony Benn, who I always thought could never see beyond his own self interest. Benn did have some kind of approach to the relationship between parliamentary and extra-parliamentary action, but it was always garbled and sound byte-y. But - with regard to Corbyn - at a political level any genuine 'socialist' should have found a point when enough was enough, certainly after the carnage of the Iraq war (but also in terms of domestic policy as inva has said).

 

[krtek a houby]

And to put as much distance between the coup and the election. Plenty of people would have been angry at the coup. Now it's rarely mentioned as the leadership race and Corbyn's monsterous behaviour are the focus. The coup doesn't matter anymore. Its old news. It's now bland, safe Owen vs the dangerous cult leader.

"Blood on the tracks"

 

[teuchter]

It is correct. The fact that many of the most expensive tickets are still regulated doesn't change the fact that pricing is done by the principle of elasticity of demand, which is why the sometimes extremely cheap fares exist.

It's incorrect to say that the trains are currently run on purely capitalist terms. They are run under heavily regulated terms set by central government (as they should be, in principle).

If the railways were run under purely capitalist terms, lots of lines would be closed, the upper end of ticket prices would be higher, and timetables would be optimised to maximise profit rather than to provide a decent service. The franchisees are not allowed to do any of these things.

It's also incorrect to imply that the "elasticity of demand" principle is what causes certain tickets to be "hugely expensive". What sets the upper limit of the range is what the government decides. The elasticity of demand sets the range of prices available below the cheapest walk-up regulated fares.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's incorrect to say that the trains are currently run on purely capitalist terms. They are run under heavily regulated terms set by central government (as they should be, in principle).

If the railways were run under purely capitalist terms, lots of lines would be closed, the upper end of ticket prices would be higher, and timetables would be optimised to maximise profit rather than to provide a decent service. The franchisees are not allowed to do any of these things.

It's also incorrect to imply that the "elasticity of demand" principle is what causes certain tickets to be "hugely expensive". What sets the upper limit of the range is what the government decides. The elasticity of demand sets the range of prices available below the cheapest walk-up regulated fares.

you confuse capitalist for free market. they are not the same thing.

next

 

[gosub]

I agree, of course, about the way he's being attacked. However, in part, with this story he is being like other politicians. It's akin to Cameron cycling to work whilst a car rode behind him with his bags and belongings. I'd only put it at the level of over egging rather than outright deception, but there's certainly an element of dare I say it..... spin.

Sort of see whats going on then: After years of French polished media spin, a scruffy bloke comes along saying people are sick of that...so his detractors are quick to point out -thats not Ronseal quick drying wood stain. Between the two is varnish and he's still learning how to apply an even coat...which will never sit well amongst the French polished stuff that's already there.

 

[two sheds]

at risk of going off topic from if there was a free seat on a train or not, I wonder what it would have taken for Corbyn to decide that the Labour Party isn't for him? Iraq War - stuck by them, all manner of anti working class policies - stuck by them, anti disabled policies - stuck by them, anti 'scrounger' policies - stuck by them, racist policies - stuck by them, privatisation - stuck by them, tuition fees - stuck by them, probably loads of other stuff too I can't think of off the top of my head. Did he have some sort of line that if the Party crossed it he'd say, right that's it I can't support them or campaign for people to vote for them anymore.

If he'd have voted with the party on all of those issues I'd have agreed with you. He generally voted against them though didn't he?

Far from being ultra principled he seems like the worst kind of party hack to me. At least the Blairites believed in what they were doing - he supposedly didn't.

Again if he'd have voted along party lines I'd have agreed with you. I'd have thought he believes in the Labour party and parliamentary democracy, so stayed in the party to fight those things - as he's now been given the chance.

I'd say the same for Dennis Skinner - every so often he sticks his head above the parapet and says something to make his point. If there weren't labour MPs who'd stayed in the party despite disagreeing it would have been 100% Blairites and we wouldn't be having the discussion at all.

But apparently no matter what Labour did and said he was always there time after time to help shore up the left flank - we can't be that bad because I'm still here! Him and McDonnell. And didn't McDonnell claim at one time to be an anti capitalist? Now he finds himself contemplating what's best for business, just like magic

I don't believe there really was any sort of point where Labour could have gone too far for him. I think his idea of socialism is so shrivelled and pathetic that it just amounts to Labour whatever Labour is and does. There's nothing else really. I guess if it ever came to it we'd find that, just like those Old Labour governments that were so great, it'll turn out that Corbyn and co have simply got to bomb someone or attack our living standards or something like that. Making tough choices. Anyway, if I did an interview with Corbyn that's what I'd ask about.

How far do we take that? What sort of shrivelled human being sees everything that the British Government has done and doesn't give up their British citizenship? Talk about bombing people and attacking citizens - how far would they have to go for you to do that?

How much fraud would HSBC/Barclays/etc. have to perpetrate before people stopped banking with them? How far would energy providers have to accelerate global warming before people changed to an ethical supplier? How far would Tescos have to go in concreting over the country before people stopped shopping with them?

 

[two sheds]

thats not Ronseal quick drying wood stain.

And what shit stuff that is - I coated loads of wood with it last year and it's half peeled off. Didn't say that on the fucking tin

 

[inva]

If he'd have voted with the party on all of those issues I'd have agreed with you. He generally voted against them though didn't he?

yeah, but so what? That was his role in the party - stay with Labour, there's still vaguely sympathetic people like me there. That's what he's for.

Again if he'd have voted along party lines I'd have agreed with you. I'd have thought he believes in the Labour party and parliamentary democracy, so stayed in the party to fight those things - as he's now been given the chance.

what does it mean to believe in the Labour Party? Believes what about it? As I asked, what would have to happen before he didn't believe in it anymore? You could join the Tory party to fight for those things and vote against the whip and it'd mean similarly little to me.

I'd say the same for Dennis Skinner - every so often he sticks his head above the parapet and says something to make his point. If there weren't labour MPs who'd stayed in the party despite disagreeing it would have been 100% Blairites and we wouldn't be having the discussion at all.

I don't like Skinner either I guess. Yeah they're all behind the parapet.

How far do we take that? What sort of shrivelled human being sees everything that the British Government has done and doesn't give up their British citizenship? Talk about bombing people and attacking citizens - how far would they have to go for you to do that?

I don't tell people they should become British citizens, I don't campaign against people not being British citizens. Corbyn didn't have to be a member of the Labour Party telling people to vote for them and campaigning against alternatives, but he did. He's a politician, a member of parliament, he's got to take some responsibility for the party he's spent decades in and working for. It's a pretty different situation isn't it.

How much fraud would HSBC/Barclays/etc. have to perpetrate before people stopped banking with them? How far would energy providers have to accelerate global warming before people changed to an ethical supplier? How far would Tescos have to go in concreting over the country before people stopped shopping with them?

Come on.

 

[Wilf]

If he'd have voted with the party on all of those issues I'd have agreed with you. He generally voted against them though didn't he?

Again if he'd have voted along party lines I'd have agreed with you. I'd have thought he believes in the Labour party and parliamentary democracy, so stayed in the party to fight those things - as he's now been given the chance.

I'd say the same for Dennis Skinner - every so often he sticks his head above the parapet and says something to make his point. If there weren't labour MPs who'd stayed in the party despite disagreeing it would have been 100% Blairites and we wouldn't be having the discussion at all.

Yes, he voted against it, but in not leaving he was still part of it. Skinner too.

 

[emanymton]

In case you didn't have enough yesterday, the graun is sending a journalist on the same train today, and liveblogging it.

This sounds like it should be a joke.

 

[Pickman's model]

In case you didn't have enough yesterday, the graun is sending a journalist on the same train today, and liveblogging it.

guardian shite thread ->->->->->->->->

 

[coley]

The medias still at it, a press conference where Corbyn was going to outline his plans to cut out contractors from the NHS has been hijacked by 'traingate'
It's gone beyond a joke.

 

[19force8]

And what shit stuff that is - I coated loads of wood with it last year and it's half peeled off. Didn't say that on the fucking tin

Literally two sheds?

 

[DaveCinzano]

In case you didn't have enough yesterday, the graun is sending a journalist on the same train today, and liveblogging it.

 

[Pickman's model]

The medias still at it, a press conference where Corbyn was going to outline his plans to cut out contractors from the NHS has been hijacked by 'traingate'
It's gone beyond a joke.

it went beyond a joke when

 

[gosub]

This sounds like it should be a joke.

"So I got the train without a hitch. It doesn’t seem to be hugely busy. In fact, I’m slightly worried that it will be mostly full of journalists.

I’m standing outside the toilet in coach H watching someone from the BBC dictate a piece into their phone – or possibly they were broadcasting live. So you can at least say there’s one positive #Traingate outcome already – the media are suddenly much more interested in the standard of service on the east coast mainline."Behind Traingate: retracing Corbyn's trip to see reality of UK rail travel – live

 

[mauvais]

In case you didn't have enough yesterday, the graun is sending a journalist on the same train today, and liveblogging it.

If you've got anything to fill in the gap for tomorrow that'd be great.

Friday we're going to run a piece on how Corbyn and his hard-left gang failed to help a young train passenger after she sought his assistance aboard a relaxed and what's more pleasantly fragrant Virgin service.

We've got a three page pictorial spread about how thanks to Jeremy's inability to lead, she ended up without any seat at all and perched on a remote island somewhere outside Newcastle (?)

 

[Doctor Carrot]

"So I got the train without a hitch. It doesn’t seem to be hugely busy. In fact, I’m slightly worried that it will be mostly full of journalists.

I’m standing outside the toilet in coach H watching someone from the BBC dictate a piece into their phone – or possibly they were broadcasting live. So you can at least say there’s one positive #Traingate outcome already – the media are suddenly much more interested in the standard of service on the east coast mainline."Behind Traingate: retracing Corbyn's trip to see reality of UK rail travel – live

I thought killerb was joking

 

[Wilf]

"So I got the train without a hitch. It doesn’t seem to be hugely busy. In fact, I’m slightly worried that it will be mostly full of journalists.

I’m standing outside the toilet in coach H watching someone from the BBC dictate a piece into their phone – or possibly they were broadcasting live. So you can at least say there’s one positive #Traingate outcome already – the media are suddenly much more interested in the standard of service on the east coast mainline."Behind Traingate: retracing Corbyn's trip to see reality of UK rail travel – live

'Well Brian, here I am, literally walking in the footsteps of Corbyn. And if I'm not mistaken, that's the very spot where his arsecheeks started this whole clusterfuck off'

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes, he voted against it, but in not leaving he was still part of it. Skinner too.

And lets not pretend that they weren't helpful to the party, it kept them around precisely to make sure people like my mum kept voting Labour even though she hated Blair and co. The Labour left helped prop up New Labour.

 

[emanymton]

Tend to agree. Fwiw I'd describe myself as an anarchist, certainly an anti-capitalist, so I'm never going to be on board for parliamentary politics. It's not just that it entails a top down model of change but also that you ultimately end up serving the interests of capital and managing the working class. I'm not having a go at anyone, people make their own choices, but I'm surprised at the number of people on the left who have got on board for Corbynism. You end up focusing your energy on a party which, almost certainly isn't going to win, but more to the point doesn't seem to be acting as a catalyst to wider left activity. But that's all me shooting the breeze - again, people make their own choices. What I think the relevant point to make about Corbynism is that it isn't particularly radical or creative in its own right, as a force for parliamentary politics. Obviously he's had his mind on other things, but there's not been much going on with regard to forging links to the working class outside of the party and his vision still seems dominated by 1945.

As discussed, this is indeed a mega thread, probably inspired by the novelty of a genuine soft left (or whatever term you prefer) moving towards control in the Labour Party. He's been given a lot of slack because of the treachery and dishonesty of his opponents, the relentlessness of the attacks - the idiocy of the attacks as well. However I think we should be able to ask serious questions about the whole Corbyn project (and I don't mean about traingate).

I think I've said it before (possibly on this thread) but I think he is getting so much support because after so many years of defeats his election win felt on some (pretty low) level like some kind of victory for 'our' side.

I think after he won it was people who are more or less on the same side as me that went into their workplaces or union branches holding their heads a little higher.

I am (and was) sceptical about how positive it will be long term. But all this has to mean something doesn't it? If nothing else hundreds of thousands of people have now identified themselves as being on the left, when they may not have done so previously?

 

[inva]

Sorry, throwing in random points here, but at the level of personality and behaviour I can fully understand the easy ride Corbyn has had on this thread. As much as any MP can he seems to have behaved well at a personal level. Certainly in comparison to that other saint, Tony Benn, who I always thought could never see beyond his own self interest. Benn did have some kind of approach to the relationship between parliamentary and extra-parliamentary action, but it was always garbled and sound byte-y. But - with regard to Corbyn - at a political level any genuine 'socialist' should have found a point when enough was enough, certainly after the carnage of the Iraq war (but also in terms of domestic policy as inva has said).

one of the things that irritates me about Corbyn is that it's easy to romanticise about the Labour Party's historical links with the labour movement or whatever and go on about 'the people' and socialism when you're not the one getting taunted and threatened by the likes of Rachel Reeves (I think it was) saying Labour was going to be tougher than the Tories on benefits, for example.

This 'principled' man could stomach sitting through that, through all Blair's smirking bollocks, on the same benches, calling on us all to vote for that party. I wouldn't trust him an inch. He's not on my side or he couldn't have stood by them.

 

[editor]

However after 'team corbyn' were forced to admit he walked past empty seats because he wanted 2 seats together it was obvious there was a bit of a game in play.

I often do that I'm with someone I want to sit with. Totally normal behaviour, IMO.