In this interview, Neil Kinnock gives an interesting commentary on Corbyn's parliamentary record and suitability for high office
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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Kinnock can jog on, another labour dynasty thats done nothing except eagerly apply to manage the decline.
And is, by all accounts, an outstanding constituency MP. But that's very different to what is needed in a party leader.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
What qualities are needed for a party leader? What would be a suitable combination of abilities and skills? List form please.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
This was its most egregious failure by far, sucking up huge amonunts of time, energy and youthful optimism, but failing utterly to produce anything from it. The entire thing was an unwinnable bet with no concept of even preparing a falback position in the event of failure. I remember warning people that would be the most likely outcome back in 2016.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
1. Ruthless
2. Go back on promises while prefacing every comment with "I've been very clear ..."
3. Stab former colleagues in the back
4. Expel party members who don't fully agree with you
5. Stress your dad's occupation
6 ...
Leadership, judgement, commanding confidence among your MPs, and (not essential but very helpful) knowledge and experience how Parliament operates. Compare and contrast with Foot and Benn.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Indeed, working for a consensus and trusting people around him to work for the good of the Labour Party and the country.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Indeed, there was no chance of that though with a great majority of right-wing labour MPs who wanted to see him fail.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Can you expand on leadership please as there are different models
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. Leadership through humility and example, for instance. Corbyn always said that it was not about him, that policy direction was something to be developed collaboratively. The fiend. Compare and contrast with the lack of humility in Starmer's stance, describing this New New Labour as 'my' party.
Then there's leadership through self-sacrifice, Jesus-style. Starmer would be willing to sacrifice pretty much anyone and anything aside from himself. An anti-Christ, if you will.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You know he's not the anti-christ on the basis the devil always has the best tunes. Whereas for shammer tunes are the sort of thing you have when you've got a cold
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I'd agree that Corbyn wasn't particularly some great leader tbh. I don't think a great leader is required though really and it's obviously not like Starmer is one either is it.
If that was the criteria who would qualify? Ben Stokes for PM?
If that was the criteria who would qualify? Ben Stokes for PM?
Lurdan
old wave
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
You are surprisingly charitable to that bastard Kinnock: when he attacked Liverpool Council in that infamous speech and the great Eric Heffer walked out, at that moment any residual (as opposed to tactical) sympathy I had for Labour left the hall too. Kinnock can rot in hell
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Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
JFK did 1&2 only…though to be fair Henry V managed all 3
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
11 support war crimes in Gaza
12 later deny you ever did
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Atlee was by all accounts a believer in collaboration and teamwork yet able to reach decisions/summate after discussions. A good implementer.
Blair couldn't/wouldn't delegate, was factional often cutting those who opposed his views out of further discussions and displayed autocratic tendencies based on his convictions rather than any collectivism. Surrounded very often by yes men/women
Blair couldn't/wouldn't delegate, was factional often cutting those who opposed his views out of further discussions and displayed autocratic tendencies based on his convictions rather than any collectivism. Surrounded very often by yes men/women
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Exactly. I remember hearing the initial Corbyn pitch at a meeting in Middlesbrough, mentioned above. All the stuff about decency, public services and the rest, check, all sounds good... but thinking, that's just the recipe of the past. What are you going to do to reconnect with working class communities, create something self sustaining?
I've just read an account of the Community Organising Unit, linked in the piece I posted yesterday:
Labour’s Secret Weapon
As Brexit looms, a surge of community organizing from within is bridging political divides and refocusing the British Labour Party.
prospect.org
It's a quite long breathless account of a series of meetings held with (presumably Labour supporting) voters, written in 2019. The rhetoric is about organising, linking and campaigning, but what it most of all reminded me of was the Labour Listens campaign from the 1980s. The whole thing is on the edge of breaching Labourism, but quite tellingly the piece talks about creating 'lasting bonds with the voters' and 'building the manifesto from the grass roots'. It's something ultimately focused on electoral outcomes, not 'organising' as such. There are times when it almost gets it, with references to other campaigns (in my slightly muddy reading of it, I've got the flu). The real core is the idea that this is about breaching a gap between middle class activists and working class voters, which the piece calls 'the real revolutionary activity' - yikes! Now, in one sense, that kind of was the problem for Labour, that class gap, something it would be fair to say was never breached. Starmer of course is breaching the gap with middle class voters.... But, to get to it, the idea of working class people organising around their own lives is entirely alien to both the author of this piece and to this 'Organising Unit'. Okay, it's perhaps unrealistic for me to lambast Labour for not being sufficiently anarchist. But it also confirms that even this attempt to break out of Labourism is bounded by Labourism. And because Labour had lost the working class, wasn't grounded in working class communities, both Labour and Corbyn's demise were inevitable.
And finally, I go back to the membership rise in the early days of Corbyn, an increase of around 400k, up to 600k. That's over 4 times the size of the UK armed forces. Grand Old Duke of York, all dressed up and nowhere to go, a quite staggering failure to create something with all of those people.
not a trot
Well-Known Member
Yeah, because Hatton and Co were such heroes. The left can often be their own worst enemies.
andysays
Love and solidarity
If we accept for a moment the idea of a parliamentary road to socialism, or even to warmed over social democracy, I think an at least half way decent leader is required to achieve that, including the crucial bit of enthusing enough of the electorate to actually win an election by leading the party in campaigning on vaguely socialist policies.
That's not all that's required, but it's certainly useful.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ - JC - Jeremy Corbyn - Coincidence??
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Like Heffer did, I had problems with them: but pale into insignificance beside those I have with Kinnock. Notice your user name: are you a Stalinist? He was scum also
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
6. All the charisma and charm of a urinal cake
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I've never seen a urinal cake with as great a dearth of charm and charisma as shammer possesses
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