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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

Pickman's model said:
you're being very economical with the truth there e2a that being the title of a talk delivered by someone who knew quite a bit about the holocaust, a survivor of the slaughter
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To be specific, a guy who spent 10 months in Auschwitz. Corbyn did a lot wrong and was soft on dickheads when he shouldn't have been, but I don't think "showed up to a meeting where the Jewish speaker, who had been rescued from a death camp, made a controversial comment about Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians and then, as Labour leader, repudiated that viewpoint when it was highlighted many years later" really qualifies, unless you're really looking to put the boot in.

I'm also not really a fan of the "oh he's mates with bastards" stuff - pretty much every politician is or acts friendly with all sorts of that ilk. They'll all shake the hand of MBS or Putin or Duterte or Modi if it's politically useful, acting as though talking to scumbags is a unique problem of his lacks perspective at best.
 
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Rob Ray said:
To be specific, a guy who spent 10 months in Auschwitz. Corbyn did a lot wrong and was soft on dickheads when he shouldn't have been, but I don't think "showed up to a meeting where the Jewish speaker, who had been rescued from a death camp, made a controversial comment about Israel's behaviour towards the Palestinians and then, as Labour leader, repudiated that viewpoint when it was highlighted many years later" really qualifies, unless you're really looking to put the boot in.

I'm also not really a fan of the "oh he's mates with bastards" stuff - pretty much every politician is or acts friendly with all sorts of that ilk. They'll all shake the hand of MBS or Putin or Duterte or Modi if it's politically useful, acting as though talking to scumbags is a unique problem of his lacks perspective at best.
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But... but it was holocaust memorial day :eek:
 
I don't agree with Corbyn's stance on a lot of foreign policy. I don't like the politics of much of the stw lot. He's a naive and often gullible friend. I don't mourn the loss of red brown twats like Williamson.

But his interventions as Labour leader, that he was censured for in the EHRC report, were to speed up the processing of antisemitic complaints within the party because Starmer's mates in the party didn't do anything about it because they only cared about the issue as a stick to beat the left. Absolute shite like how a surname was pronounced was spun into a genuine threat while racist shit was OK if the rest of your politics fitted.

It's absolutely cynical and awful and dangerous, and frankly, allows all sorts of antisemitic, islamaphobic and other shit to flourish now because the right people are back in charge. I just hope it salts the earth of that party in the long run because it's not worth anything to ordinary people.
 
Pickman's model said:
corbyn has some principles - whatever you may think of them - and shammer doesn't
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i disagree.

starmer has principles.

admittedly, they are different to the principles he had last week, and will probably be different to the ones he has next week...

:p

0*5iWImuAOP07p59ZV.
 
Puddy_Tat said:
admittedly, they are different to the principles he had last week, and will probably be different to the ones he has next week...
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Very true, perhaps their election slogan should be :

"you never know what could happen in the next 4 years"
 
It's never going to end, is it?

Yeah, he said stuff that could be seen as problematic and liking that mural was not a good look, but the response was disproportionate.

FFS, there's one or two posters within urban who have knowingly used tropes and canards, and barely got their wrists slapped.

Think he made some bad choices but is he an antisemite? No way.
 
krtek a houby said:
It's never going to end, is it?

Yeah, he said stuff that could be seen as problematic and liking that mural was not a good look, but the response was disproportionate.

FFS, there's one or two posters within urban who have knowingly used tropes and canards, and barely got their wrists slapped.

Think he made some bad choices but is he an antisemite? No way.
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TBF I can't think of any urban poster who hasn't knowingly used ducks, or duck-based products.
 
krtek a houby said:
...Think he made some bad choices but is he an antisemite? No way.
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It's the smell test.

If you have openly racist friends, go on openly racist media - and not challenge them, and walk past openly racist stuff - and do this time and time again over 30+ years, does it matter if you don't quite cross the line into racism on any particular occasion?

Corbyn isn't some bloke in the street who's not particularly politically aware, and although he has friends who make 'off colour' jokes that he doesn't really understand, is a decent bloke at heart - he's, as he never fails to mention, a lifelong anti-racism campaigner.

As ever, if a Tory, or lib Dems, or Labour MP on the right of the party had spent 30+ years skirting accusations of anti-Semitism, would you give them the same clean bill of health?

No, you wouldn't, you'd say that there's little smoke without fire, that if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

He's not consciously anti-Semitic, he's probably genuinely appalled that he's accused of it - but he's been swimming in a very nasty pond for 30+ years, making friends with some pretty odious people, standing on some pretty grim platforms, and he's just blind to it, willfully imv, but blind to it, because it doesn't fit into his self image.

Someone said it upthread - he learns nothing, he is utterly impervious to any kind of reflection.
 
kebabking said:
It's the smell test.

If you have openly racist friends, go on openly racist media - and not challenge them, and walk past openly racist stuff - and do this time and time again over 30+ years, does it matter if you don't quite cross the line into racism on any particular occasion?

Corbyn isn't some bloke in the street who's not particularly politically aware, and although he has friends who make 'off colour' jokes that he doesn't really understand, is a decent bloke at heart - he's, as he never fails to mention, a lifelong anti-racism campaigner.

As ever, if a Tory, or lib Dems, or Labour MP on the right of the party had spent 30+ years skirting accusations of anti-Semitism, would you give them the same clean bill of health?

No, you wouldn't, you'd say that there's little smoke without fire, that if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

He's not consciously anti-Semitic, he's probably genuinely appalled that he's accused of it - but he's been swimming in a very nasty pond for 30+ years, making friends with some pretty odious people, standing on some pretty grim platforms, and he's just blind to it, willfully imv, but blind to it, because it doesn't fit into his self image.

Someone said it upthread - he learns nothing, he is utterly impervious to any kind of reflection.
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I think pretty much all the tories who have flirted with fascism and racism,who have hobnobbed with fascists, who have been in eg the Monday club, they've basically got away with it. No one points at eg jrm,who has sat down to dinner with fascists, and says much about that, it's all about how he's the member for the eighteenth century or similar meaningless tosh. Tebbit and Alan Clark and that never faced the reaction corbyn has had
 
kebabking said:
If you have openly racist friends, go on openly racist media - and not challenge them, and walk past openly racist stuff - and do this time and time again over 30+ years, does it matter if you don't quite cross the line into racism on any particular occasion?
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I think he did do this too often. I also think this is a failing of a section of the pro-Palestine left more broadly which I suspect has gotten used to giving such language a pass (sometimes reasonably - eg. when Palestinians who have spent their whole lives being oppressed say unpleasant shit about their oppressors, sometimes not - eg. Western activists balancing along the "dodgy but useful" tightrope).

That said, there is a difference between tolerating people being dickheads and being a dickhead. Maybe not in terms of electoral strategising, but in life. Prior to his election Corbyn was a "solidarity with anyone in red/talking anti-imperialism" guy. We all knew it and it got him a lot of love in the position he expected to inhabit his whole life - bankbench rebel MP. Hell it's probably what got him the leadership in the first place, that sense of him being a true believing, non-sectarian socialist. And then it became counterproductive when he got elected, because even beyond hanging out with Palestine activists, hanging out with leading Cubans, Venezuelans and Irish Republicans comes with a shitload of political baggage. Of course it was successfully weaponised later on when he gained a role his faction was not prepared for in the slightest.

kebabking said:
he learns nothing, he is utterly impervious to any kind of reflection
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This is his worst failing, yes, he simply had no capability of adapting to his new role. It's something I've always found strange in his kind - the electoralist left - that they tell anarchists off for being unrealistic with our hopes of building extra-Parliamentary power, but fail every time when presented with a need to change their own course to succeed electorally. Dedicating their lives to capturing Parliament while deliberately sabotaging their own efforts at every turn. Everyone needs a hobby I suppose.

But it was his worst failing long before he became Leader of the Opposition, which mainly just happened because it was his turn to run. Wrong man in the right place at the right time.
 
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One of the best things about Corbyn's style as leader was his attempt to make it not all about him. I think it was genuine. Sometimes not being a natural Leader in the 'I'm the alpha now do as I say' way can be an asset. Came close to working in 2017, when nobody gave him a chance. Then it all went wrong.

He's not an impressive orator. I don't think he's particularly clever. And he's certainly prone to error - he did have blind spots, can't be denied. But he is decent. When was the last time we had a decent person as PM? How often do decent people become successful political leaders anywhere? It does happen, but rarely. We weren't lucky enough to have one of those rare cases.

People may say I'm overly forgiving of his failings. Maybe. But I actually find it hard to put into words how fucking different and unexpected it felt - briefly - when someone with a shot at power was talking in a way that I understood, in a way that related to my lived experience. Back to feeling totally disenfranchised again, it seems. I'll take the brief moment of pleasure from him winning in Islington next year if it happens, even if it's meaningless in the scheme of things. Sometimes you just feel the need to stand up and say 'We're here'.
 
Pickman's model said:
I think pretty much all the tories who have flirted with fascism and racism,who have hobnobbed with fascists, who have been in eg the Monday club, they've basically got away with it. No one points at eg jrm,who has sat down to dinner with fascists, and says much about that, it's all about how he's the member for the eighteenth century or similar meaningless tosh. Tebbit and Alan Clark and that never faced the reaction corbyn has had
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And let's not forget that while people who should have known better were busy smearing Corbyn in 2019, an actual racist said openly racist things and won the election.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
And let's not forget that while people who should have known better were busy smearing Corbyn in 2019, an actual racist said openly racist things and won the election.
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See, this is entirely true - however is rather ignores the idea that people expect a higher standard of non-racist behaviour from a lifelong anti-racism campaigner than they do from, a, err... racist.

Do you not expect a higher standard of engineering expertise from an engineer than you do from Dave down the pub, who works for HMRC - or indeed from Nigel, the bloke in your street who tells people that engineers are know-nothing charlatans who have made it all up?
 
kebabking said:
See, this is entirely true - however is rather ignores the idea that people expect a higher standard of non-racist behaviour from a lifelong anti-racism campaigner than they do from, a, err... racist.

Do you not expect a higher standard of engineering expertise from an engineer than you do from Dave down the pub, who works for HMRC - or indeed from Nigel, the bloke in your street who tells people that engineers are know-nothing charlatans who have made it all up?
Click to expand...

This would work better if Nigel had just been given a job involving engineering on the grounds the engineer skill gaps but you wouldn't expect Nigel to know anything. Or something along those lines.
 
kebabking said:
See, this is entirely true - however is rather ignores the idea that people expect a higher standard of non-racist behaviour from a lifelong anti-racism campaigner than they do from, a, err... racist.

Do you not expect a higher standard of engineering expertise from an engineer than you do from Dave down the pub, who works for HMRC - or indeed from Nigel, the bloke in your street who tells people that engineers are know-nothing charlatans who have made it all up?
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Is Nigel an antisemite as well?
 
kebabking said:
Well, he's not a very good engineer - rather like Corbyn not being a very good lifelong anti-racism campaigner...
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He's done alright.

"The South African Embassy in London was the focus of periodic protests against apartheid from the late 1950s onwards. In the early 1980s, as resistance to apartheid intensified in South Africa, so too did the frequency of protests outside the embassy. The diplomatic representatives of the apartheid regime brought immense pressure to bear on the Foreign Office to curtail these protests. In June 1984, the Metropolitan Police took action to ban protests directly outside the embassy. Members of the City of London Anti-Apartheid Group organised a campaign of civil disobedience to defy and break the ban.
"Many members of the group were arrested for breaking the ban, and attempting to protest directly outside the embassy. They saw this as important, not only as a protest against apartheid and racism in South Africa, but as a way of defending their own right to assembly and protest in Britain.

"Jeremy Corbyn was one of a small number of politicians who was arrested alongside less famous protesters. In doing so, he helped to defeat the police ban and reinstate anti-apartheid protests in front of South Africa House - where they could have maximum impact on the representatives of the apartheid regime in Britain.
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Research unearths viral image of Labour Party leader

Exhibit B regarding his decency would be his record of expenses claims. One of a tiny handful of MPs who very clearly claimed less than they could have done despite thinking that nobody was paying attention.
 
kebabking said:
Well, he's not a very good engineer - rather like Corbyn not being a very good lifelong anti-racism campaigner...
Click to expand...
Yep, done nothing at all his whole life to fight antisemitism, utter bastard he is :mad:

20 February 2019 at 10:07 ·

1. In October 1936, Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the battle of Cable Street indefence of British Jews after British fascists had staged an assault on the area. Corbyn was raised in a household passionately opposed to antisemitism in all its forms.
2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstration to protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.
3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motion condemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK
4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack
5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attack on a London Synagogue
6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning terrorist attacks on two synagogues
7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials
8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims
9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread of Antisemitism on Facebook
10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.
11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.
12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.
13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.
14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning antisemitism in sport.
15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.
16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.
17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.
18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.
19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.
20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.
21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.
22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.
23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.
24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.
25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.
26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.
27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.
28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.
29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.
30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.
31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.
32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.
33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.
34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.
35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.
36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.
37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.
38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.
39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.
40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allows decisions free from political influence to be taken.


 
two sheds said:
Yep, done nothing at all his whole life to fight antisemitism, utter bastard he is :mad:

20 February 2019 at 10:07 ·

1. In October 1936, Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the battle of Cable Street indefence of British Jews after British fascists had staged an assault on the area. Corbyn was raised in a household passionately opposed to antisemitism in all its forms.
2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstration to protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.
3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motion condemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK
4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack
5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attack on a London Synagogue
6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning terrorist attacks on two synagogues
7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials
8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims
9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread of Antisemitism on Facebook
10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.
11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.
12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.
13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.
14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning antisemitism in sport.
15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.
16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.
17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.
18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.
19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.
20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.
21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.
22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.
23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.
24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.
25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.
26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.
27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.
28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.
29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.
30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.
31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.
32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.
33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.
34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.
35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.
36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.
37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.
38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.
39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.
40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allows decisions free from political influence to be taken.


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7h47ny.jpg
 
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