Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[Ax^]

 

[RD2003]

So why do you think Labour voters keep voting Labour?

Because most people want somebody to sort the shit out for them. Outside the public sector, you're not even allowed to join a union in most workplaces (officially you may be but everybody is cowed by the prospect.) Almost nobody is prepared to stick their neck out because it can mean, and probably will, losing the job you are totally dependent on. And your workmates are in the same boat, so will usually not back you up even if sympathetic.

AA's ideas fall down in today's society because nobody has the inclination, pol;itical understanding, and, most of all, the energy and spare time. And everybody is indebted up to the fucking eyeballs, and hence trapped. How could those who have to do unpaid overtime (or as good as), and then get home to sort out family shit, possibly devote the time? Some might try, but not enough. And those who do have the time and energy left over have a big Netflix backup to deal with, which is, of course, more enticing.

And everybody knows, at some level, that Labour will let them down. They can then get on with the task of blaming Labour. And Labour will have told them in advance to expect everything, and at the same time next to nothing. And nobody listened, if only because they didn't want to hear the bad news. You never meet anybody who has any real understanding of the role of the state and capital in all this. It's just politicians letting you down again. And that's where relatively apolitical Labour voters join hands with the likes of AA.

The bastards got everybody where they wanted them.

 

[Ax^]

join a union don't tell you employer

unless its a contract issue

at the moment to much of the country is trusting the tory party not to tank the country anymore than it already has

that way leads to madness

 

[RD2003]

join a union don't tell you employer

unless its a contract issue

at the moment to much of the country is trusting the tory party not to tank the country anymore than it already has

that way leads to madness

I know a few who've joined unions on the quiet, but it counts for next to nothing when you're just an individual.

 

[Ax^]

if you been a longer enough member of the union it won't just be you as the individual when shite hits the fan

thats the reason for having one

i'm not the best example did not involve them when i've called team leaders and managers a cunt because of help from here


returning to the problem its mentioned in the rules read this place before making opinions that are black and white points

this place is a resource not an echo chamber like most social media based websites

 

[RD2003]

if you been a longer enough member of the union it won't just be you as the individual when shite hits the fan

thats the reason for having one

i'm not the best example did not involve them when i've called team leaders and managers a cunt because of help from here

I'm not saying it doesn't offer you some protection, but you're still a relatively powerless individual as a sole union member in a non-union workplace.

We need the fucking closed shop back, but there's no discernible route to it.

 

[Ax^]

depends on the size of the company and the hr department

i'd suggest anyone has it in their back pocket regardless

 

[Ax^]

and lovely urbs

 

[mojo pixy]

Outside the public sector, you're not even allowed to join a union in most workplaces

Rubbish. People just don't like paying the subs out of a likely meagre wage (which is quite understandable tbh) for what they perceive as not a lot in return. £15-20 a month for some discount vouchers and the potential for protection in case things go wrong, are really not much of a draw. That plus years of anti 'loony left', 'unions holding the country to ransom' type propaganda make joining a union unattractive to a lot of people.

People choose not to join, they're not banned from it. And this is a far harder battle to fight because it requires slow engagement and persuasion on an individual level, not heroic political actions.

We need the fucking closed shop back

Christ, no. That's exactly the shit that gets people's backs up and it's 100% counterproductive. What we need is unions that cost a fiver a month to join and offer tangible, everyday benefits to members. Social clubs, sports clubs, cheap car/home/health insurance, subsidised childcare, subsidised groceries and energy suppliers. Some of this already exists, but nobody knows about it, so we also need massive advertising campaigns about the benefits of membership. And (trigger warning: contrarian shit ahead) we need to spend less on officers' salaries and political campaigns, and more on member services.

I am working class, minimum-waged, and a union member btw. And I try and recruit new members all the time, so I know what I'm up against and why.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because most people want somebody to sort the shit out for them. Outside the public sector, you're not even allowed to join a union in most workplaces (officially you may be but everybody is cowed by the prospect.) Almost nobody is prepared to stick their neck out because it can mean, and probably will, losing the job you are totally dependent on. And your workmates are in the same boat, so will usually not back you up even if sympathetic.

AA's ideas fall down in today's society because nobody has the inclination, pol;itical understanding, and, most of all, the energy and spare time. And everybody is indebted up to the fucking eyeballs, and hence trapped. How could those who have to do unpaid overtime (or as good as), and then get home to sort out family shit, possibly devote the time? Some might try, but not enough. And those who do have the time and energy left over have a big Netflix backup to deal with, which is, of course, more enticing.

And everybody knows, at some level, that Labour will let them down. They can then get on with the task of blaming Labour. And Labour will have told them in advance to expect everything, and at the same time next to nothing. And nobody listened, if only because they didn't want to hear the bad news. You never meet anybody who has any real understanding of the role of the state and capital in all this. It's just politicians letting you down again. And that's where relatively apolitical Labour voters join hands with the likes of AA.

The bastards got everybody where they wanted them.

If I want your opinion, I'll be sure to ask you for it

 

[RD2003]

Rubbish. People just don't like paying the subs out of a likely meagre wage (which is quite understandable tbh) for what they perceive as not a lot in return. £15-20 a month for some discount vouchers and the potential for protection in case things go wrong, are really not much of a draw. That plus years of anti 'loony left', 'unions holding the country to ransom' type propaganda make joining a union unattractive to a lot of people.

Don't really understand what you're arguing here. All left politicos know that unions are feeble these days. I was making the point that a non-union workplace is more powerless than one where most people are in even a feeble union. Anybody who can remember what it was like when most of your workmates were in the union in a private sector industry will know the difference. I spent a long time in the AEU/AUEW, one of the most right wing and class-collaborationist of all. It still made a massive difference to what the employer could get away with compared with today. I'm not sure anti-loony left propaganda has much of an impact on this issue now, in a situation where even the Tories accept much of the stuff that the old tabloid-demonised 'loony left' was pushing (because it has no damaging effect on capital, and can therefore be co-opted.) It's more the case that when you're in a workplace where nobody else is in a union, and there is employer intimidation, it seems pointless for yourself. Plus, among younger workers, lack of memory and understanding of what a union is for.

People choose not to join, they're not banned from it. And this is a far harder battle to fight because it requires slow engagement and persuasion on an individual level, not heroic political actions.

I didn't say it was illegal to join a union. I said 'Outside the public sector, you're not even allowed to join a union in most workplaces (officially you may be but everybody is cowed by the prospect.)' But now you seem to be arguing for people to be persuaded to join the unions you claim are they won't join anyway, as too expensive and pointless. Nobody mentioned heroism. And how long would patient persuasion of individual workers actually take? You could be dead before you'd persuaded even a handful.

Christ, no. That's exactly the shit that gets people's backs up and it's 100% counterproductive. What we need is unions that cost a fiver a month to join and offer tangible, everyday benefits to members. Social clubs, sports clubs, cheap car/home/health insurance, subsidised childcare, subsidised groceries and energy suppliers. Some of this already exists, but nobody knows about it, so we also need massive advertising campaigns about the benefits of membership. And (trigger warning: contrarian shit ahead) we need to spend less on officers' salaries and political campaigns, and more on member services.

I am working class, minimum-waged, and a union member btw. And I try and recruit new members all the time, so I know what I'm up against and why.

Nothing happens without a degree of compulsion. Far from being counter-productive, I don't remember most union members being particularly pissed off when the closed shop was widespread, especially when they quite often got stuff like pay-rises and reasonable working conditions. It's no accident that the closed shop was a major point of attack for the early Thatcher governments.

I agree with the rest of what you say, but it seems highly unlikely to happen, as the pool of people who want it and are prepared to fight for it is too small.

 

[mojo pixy]

Don't really understand what you're arguing here.

I know you don't. Are you in a union? Have you ever joined one out of choice?

 

[RD2003]

I know you don't. Are you in a union? Have you ever joined one out of choice?

Have you read my reply to you?

 

[mojo pixy]

Have you read my reply to you?

Yes I read it.

Are you currently a member of a union? Have you ever joined a union out of your own choice? (As opposed to being signed up by a 'closed shop' type arrangement)

 

[RD2003]

Yes I read it.

Are you currently a member of a union? Have you ever joined a union out of your own choice? (As opposed to being signed up by a 'closed shop' type arrangement)

Yes, And when the closed shop existed, most people joined unions voluntarily. The closed shop was a fucking important working class weapon. One that no longer exists. And we've been feeling the deleterious effcts for some time.

 

[mojo pixy]

Yes, And when the closed shop existed, most people joined unions voluntarily. The closed shop was a fucking important working class weapon. One that no longer exists. And we've been feeling the deleterious effcts for some time.

Yeah, you're stuck in a past that's gone, and you're not even a union member any more. I am, and cheezy as it might sound (don't know how else to put it) I'm doing my best to try, somehow, to grope a way into a future where unions matter again. Boomer mithering is just annoying and irrelevant tbh. You admitted you didn't understand my points, which means you don't really understand where we're at or why, anyway that's clear from what you posted in response. And I already know from reading dozens of your posts on a range of matters, that you're not inclined to reflect on your own lack of understanding, you just wave it about like a shitty stick. So please carry on complaining that shit aint like it was, and I'll leave you to it.

 

[RD2003]

Yeah, you're stuck in a past that's gone, and you're not even a union member any more. I am, and cheezy as it might sound (don't know how else to put it) I'm doing my best to try, somehow, to grope a way into a future that matters and where unions matter again. Boomer mithering is just annoying and irrelevant tbh. You admitted you didn't understand my points, which means you don't really understand where we're at or why, anyway that's clear from what you posted in response. And I already know from reading dozens of your posts on a range of matters, that you're not inclined to reflect on your own lack of understanding, you just wave it about like a shitty stick. So please carry on complaining that shit ain't like it was, and I'll leave you to it.

This addresses nothing of what I've said.

I'll leave you to your superior understanding and groping.

 

[mojo pixy]

This addresses nothing of what I've said.

What you said was irrelevant and backwards-looking. And you're not even in a union ffs.

 

[SysOut]

Boomer mithering

Boomer is a USAmerican expression which applies only to USA demography. It is generally used by ageists and other misanthrops (racists, sexists, eugenists etc - same mentality). The vocabulary of discrimination.
HTH.

 

[RD2003]

What you said was irrelevant and backwards-looking. And you're not even in a union ffs.

Don't understand why you keep saying I'm not in a union, as if you'd know. Unless you have access to my Special Branch file ('cos that's how fucking subversive I've been in my time).

I don't see why referring to the difference between a few decades ago and now is backward looking. As if it isn't useful to look back on stuff. And as if you're somehow gonna do better with what you (vaguely) purport to be doing or support (I predict with supreme confidence that you are not. But good luck anyway.)

 

[RD2003]

Boomer is a USAmerican expression which applies only to USA demography. It is generally used by ageists and other misanthrops (racists, sexists, eugenists etc - same mentality). The vocabulary of discrimination.
HTH.

Is 'boomer mithering ' an actual 'thing' (as they say these days)? I was born a bit too late to be a boomer. Which is a pity, as they're supposed to be dead well-off now, even if nearly all the surviving members of that generation that I know are not particularly. And they're accused of doing down the young people of today. I feel I've missed out here, as I find most of the young people of today slightly annoying, when I even notice them, and would welcome an opportunity to do them down.

 

[Serge Forward]

I'm fairly sure "boomer mithering" is not a US term

 

[mojo pixy]

Boomer is a USAmerican expression which applies only to USA demography. It is generally used by ageists and other misanthrops (racists, sexists, eugenists etc - same mentality). The vocabulary of discrimination.
HTH.

OK boomer. HTH

 

[mojo pixy]

Don't understand why you keep saying I'm not in a union, as if you'd know.

Because if you were you'd say you were. But you're not, so you can't say you are. You just don't want to admit it, you'd rather do the usual slippery knobend act.

Unless you have access to my Special Branch file ('cos that's how fucking subversive I've been in my time).

yawn

 

[mojo pixy]

Check it out:

• In a union, trying to recruit new members every day? You're doing it wrong.
• Complaining about shit that happened a generation ago but doing nothing to help? Fucking relevant as shit mate.
• Taking the piss out of tragic pointless nostaligia with a kids' meme? Language of discrimination and borderline eugenics, sunshine!
• Asking a simple yes/no question? I don't understand.
• And young people? They're just annoying! (when I even pay attention to them)

Jeremy Corbyn's time really is up isn't it.

 

[RD2003]

Check it out:

• In a union, trying to recruit new members every day? You're doing it wrong.
• Complaining about shit that happened a generation ago but doing nothing to help? Fucking relevant as shit mate.
• Taking the piss out of tragic pointless nostaligia with a kids' meme? Language of discrimination and borderline eugenics, sunshine!
• Asking a simple yes/no question? I don't understand.
• And young people? They're just annoying! (when I even pay attention to them)

Jeremy Corbyn's time really is up isn't it.

Not really sure what you get out of trying to personalise the issue. It isn't as if what somebody personally does or doesn't do can make the necessary impact in the circumstances I describe, even if it might be worthwhile in itself. Probably, how it makes you feel personally is what's most important, so, as I said, good luck.

Nostalgia is not the issue, but contemporary reality.

No idea what your third bullet point in particular is supposed to be about.

As for Corbyn, I haven't mentioned him.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really sure what you get out of trying to personalise the issue. It isn't as if what somebody personally does or doesn't do can make the necessary impact in the circumstances I describe, even if it might be worthwhile in itself. Probably, how it makes you feel personally is what's most important, so, as I said, good luck.

Nostalgia is not the issue, but contemporary reality.

No idea what your third bullet point in particular is supposed to be about.

As for Corbyn, I haven't mentioned him.

Wtf are you doing on this thread then?

 

[RD2003]

Wtf are you doing on this thread then?

For one thing because you asked a question of another poster, on which I also had an opinion. Then others jumped in, and so I stuck around to answer their points.

Online forums can get a bit like that sometimes.

 

[Pickman's model]

For one thing because you asked a question of another poster, on which I also had an opinion. Then others jumped in, and so I stuck around to answer their points.

Online forums can get a bit like that sometimes.

Maybe you could unstick. I didn't ask for your opinion on that matter, i have no interest in your opinion whatsoever.

 

[RD2003]

i have no interest in your opinion whatsoever.

I don't mind. It isn't compulsory after all.

On the other hand, I am oftem admiring of much that you have to say, if a little puzzled by your eagerness to post on what can seem, to somebody with limited time to look, any and every subject that ever arises.