IWCA v BNP, on your radio

[framed]

I wasn't particularly looking for a barney with you Steve, I only posted in order to try to clarify that there have been, or maybe in the future, circumstances where the blanket 'No Platform' approach might not always work.

I think Militant were wrong at that time, but I can also understand what they might have been (cack-handedly) trying to achieve by it. Some Militant members have argued with me that the plan was to politically humiliate the BNP in front of the young people that they were trying to attract and, it was argued, that they had a contingency plan to physically attack the fash should they feel it necessary.

I don't think Militant, despite their numbers, were particularly well-equipped to deal with the fash, who they massively underestimated physically. This came back to haunt them in Penilee in 1997 when they had to negotiate their way out of the scheme by allowing the fascist led mob outside of their election meeting access to the political debate inside. A strict policy of No Platform that night would have amounted to the progressives being heavily defeated.

BTW, It wasn't just Militant that made tactical errors in Penilee, I still have the scars on my head from a clash between AFA and the BNP in Penilee that took place a few weeks later and for which we were ill-prepared and tactically naieve. Still, it took only two AFA lads to stand (after the rest had run) and hold them back with CS Gas and bike chains.

 

[bignose1]

I wasn't particularly looking for a barney with you Steve, I only posted in order to try to clarify that there have been, or maybe in the future, circumstances where the blanket 'No Platform' approach might not always work.

I think Militant were wrong at that time, but I can also understand what they might have been (cack-handedly) trying to achieve by it. Some Militant members have argued with me that the plan was to politically humiliate the BNP in front of the young people that they were trying to attract and, it was argued, that they had a contingency plan to physically attack the fash should they feel it necessary.

I don't think Militant, despite their numbers, were particularly well-equipped to deal with the fash, who they massively underestimated physically. This came back to haunt them in Penilee in 1997 when they had to negotiate their way out of the scheme by allowing the fascist led mob outside of their election meeting access to the political debate inside. A strict policy of No Platform that night would have amounted to the progressives being heavily defeated.

BTW, It wasn't just Militant that made tactical errors in Penilee, I still have the scars on my head from a clash between AFA and the BNP in Penilee that took place a few weeks later and for which we were ill-prepared and tactically naieve. Still, it took only two AFA lads to stand (after the rest had run) and hold them back with CS Gas and bike chains.

If Im a bit rusty on things gone by in the past...like me knees ..(theirs probably a bit of wear and tear elsewhere too)...I can personally say that I have never wavered from NO Platform...that isnt to say I havent engaged in discussion with known fash in pubs...bus queues..footy matches when its ocurred randomly and indeed have spoken with EDL supporters recently in a non confrontational manner following the Hyde demo. Thats good youth work. I think were talking about the like of Darby where I feel there is nothing to be gained and stuff to lose. Deep down Im quite a 'simple' anti fascist...I dont/cant get all sophisticated about it...the arguments simple in my eyes..a bit like 4 legs good 2 legs bad....were the good guys. And I must reference you back to the stuff on the RA board in 2003/4 with NR. So much stuff was personal attacks that a decent debate never took place. That was time wasted in my eyes and gave the fash far too much wanking material.

 

[framed]

The problem I see in a dogmatic application of No Platform is that the fash get so much access to the airwaves these days, it's becoming almost impossible to implement an effective policy of No Platform against them.

Of course, where the left have control over the platform concessions and political accommodations should never be made with the fash (although in the case of that Penilee meeting where Militant had to let the fash into the meeting in order to secure their own escape from the area, I think it can be excused on grounds of necessary political expediency and personal survival) but with these radio and television shows where we have no control over the choice of interviewees, is it always correct to refuse to counter them politically in the same programme?

 

[The39thStep]

I wouldn't take a lead from Tommy Sheridan on anti fascism any more than I would on how to spend my "leisure" time frankly. I thought most people on the Left/anti fascist movement didn't have much time for Searchlight's reformist/respectability schtic of recent years.

Given that white (racist )working class people have ALWAYS got "upset" when nasty Lefty anti fascists have taken action to stop them holding perfectly peaceful marches to publicise their racist views (in the early 70's the NF used to turn out the whole family on their perfectly peaceful racist parades) , I assume the old RA , now IWCA "free speachers" are having serious second thoughts about their entire violent pasts ? I NEVER met a vaguelly anti racist working class person who was at all worried about NAZIS being kicked off the streets or their meetings broken up, or their ability to spew their racist poison on the mass media, curtailed.

This belief in the pure power of debate now held by the IWCA is truly like a return to debates held with young liberals in the 1970's. "Surely when confronted with the good honest TRUTH of the anti racist message in debate the fascists will be trounced every time " they argued. Sadly guys reality aint like that. Fascist IDEOLOGY is a complete, integrated, world view, that taps into deep belief systems rampant in ex-Imperial capitalist societies like Britain-- racism, extreme nationalism, "Britishness", the glories of Empire, Law and order, anti-semitism, etc , etc. You will no doubt be OUTRAGED for me to say this , but it is simply a fact that a well clued up fascist orator , debating in front of an audience already long pre-prepared by generations of racist and nationalist ideology, could make ABSOLUTE MINCEMEAT of the IWCA ! "What an outrageous thing to say !" you'll wail. "we are the bees knees when it comes to destroying racist illusions with our pure argument" Wail on guys, unlike socialists the IWCA has such a poverty of philosophy, and NO answer to the capitalist crisis, that the racist/nationalist nostrums of the fascists will "key in/resonate" with the racists in an audience in a way that the shallow "self help working class localism" of the IWCA simply can't.

Only Socialist ideology can offer a real counterposition to fascist rhetoric. Even here, socialists would be foolish to assume that "debate" alone will turn round a racist audience to socialism -- only being involved in STRUGGLE against ther bosses, and alongside workers of varied ethnic backgrounds can do this. It is precisely because socialists recognise the POTENCY and extreme historic DANGER of fascist rhetoric for people already pre indoctrinated by generations of prejudice spread by this ex imperialist nation's ruling class with key elements of fascist ideology that we say "No Platform" (whenever we can achieve it) to spread their vile and poisonous ideology.

"You Lefties are SCARED of fascist ideas" you riposte. Too bloody right ! The world historic menace of fascism and fascist ideology is to be feared. It is a cancerous danger in the working class, feeding on DEEPLY held prejudices indoctrinated into millions of people. We musn't let the fascists, march, speak, operate, as far as that is possible. In the meantime the Left has to engage in STRUGGLE so that working class people, including those with deep seated prejudices, can be WON to socialism, through STRUGGLE, not debates with Nazis in meeting halls or on the radio FFS.

So what is required is essentially some form of SWP without the SWP ? You get a lot of this from ex members.

 

[love detective]

Short piece in the Oxford Mail about Darby scarpering

 

[The39thStep]

Short piece in the Oxford Mail about Darby scarpering

No 'anti fascsist' no platform forced him to pull out then?

 

[manny-p]

No 'anti fascsist' no platform forced him to pull out then?

From a comment under that oxford mail story-

Nice story, shame it isn't true. I was never going to Oxford in the first it was simply to be a telephone interview.Here's the email I sent to the radio station on Saturday-

Dear ******,

Word reaches me this morning that rather than an interview with one of your presenters about BNP policy as originally sold to me, Monday's show is to be a "debate" between me and a member of the far left.

Unfortunately the far left don't do "debate" when it come to the BNP. Instead what we will see is an outpouring of hatred, poison and hostility that might make sensationalist radio, but will effectively drag me down to their level.

My time, although ostensibly given freely, is precious to me and I can find alternatives for a Monday morning that do not involve being shouted at, vilified and abused as part of a contrived, confrontational spectacle.

If you had let me know of your intentions in the first place it would have been better, however I'm giving you as much notice as I can so as not to disappoint or inconvenience your listeners.

Simon

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Short piece in the Oxford Mail about Darby scarpering

Here's what the cunt says:

Simon Darby says...
2:03pm Tue 3 Apr 12
Nice story, shame it isn't true. I was never going to Oxford in the first it was simply to be a telephone interview.Here's the email I sent to the radio station on Saturday-

Dear ******,

Word reaches me this morning that rather than an interview with one of your presenters about BNP policy as originally sold to me, Monday's show is to be a "debate" between me and a member of the far left.

Unfortunately the far left don't do "debate" when it come to the BNP. Instead what we will see is an outpouring of hatred, poison and hostility that might make sensationalist radio, but will effectively drag me down to their level.

My time, although ostensibly given freely, is precious to me and I can find alternatives for a Monday morning that do not involve being shouted at, vilified and abused as part of a contrived, confrontational spectacle.

If you had let me know of your intentions in the first place it would have been better, however I'm giving you as much notice as I can so as not to disappoint or inconvenience your listeners.

Simon

I think that's as a good a vindication of the IWCA's decision to debate Darby as you could get.

edit - snap!

 

[Fedayn]

If Darby was invited to the studio-perhaps he's lying-then he does seem to have ran from a possible debate, fair enough. Everyone's a winner except Darby who now looks a tad timid and the people who will see this and know of Cllr Craft might be a tad bemused at his caricature of said councillor.

 

[Fedayn]

My time, although ostensibly given freely, is precious to me and I can find alternatives for a Monday morning that do not involve being shouted at, vilified and abused as part of a contrived, confrontational spectacle.

***

Simon​

Given Griffin appeared in such a spectacle could that be seen as a sideswipe at Griffin or a desperate claim it would be just the same or both?

 

[audiotech]

Having banged on more doors in BBL and had more discussions about this than I care to think about, I'd say in general it is pretty effortless. Also have to say I've heard loads of nonsense talked about Stuart but the idea that he's got a romanticised view of working class life is certainly a new one....

I've read Stuart Craft's councillors diary over the years and I've also heard him speak, with comment posted on-line. My comment wasn't a personal one.

Has it become 'effortless'? By that I mean being established politically over a period of time and living in the area?

Edit: I've just spotted Smokeandsteam post, who has covered the point.

 

[sumud]

steve 'little man issues' slags off people again but forgets about his own well known failings. Any sign of the missing cash? Still not allowed live in Glasgow?

 

[framed]

Glen the stalker... lol

 

[manny-p]

If Darby was invited to the studio-perhaps he's lying-then he does seem to have ran from a possible debate, fair enough. Everyone's a winner except Darby who now looks a tad timid and the people who will see this and know of Cllr Craft might be a tad bemused at his caricature of said councillor.

Also since we know how paranoid the far right are and they knew that there are many red action folk in the IWCA they probably had a fear of getting done over.

 

[Deareg]

Also since we know how paranoid the far right are and they knew that there are many red action folk in the IWCA they probably had a fear of getting done over.

I hope so.

 

[bignose1]

Here's what the cunt says:



I think that's as a good a vindication of the IWCA's decision to debate Darby as you could get.

edit - snap!

'Darby scarpering'...got a great ring to it.....Griffin biffed...or Brons berated..

 

[stein]

First post on here but, from the outside looking in, it appears the IWCA couldn't have played it better. I've no doubt their argument would have won the debate if it was held amongst working class people in the area anyway but it has turned out even better. The BNP shat themselves and have been made to look like kids spitting the dummy out.

With regards to 'No Platform', what were the IWCA supposed to do when the radio presenter invited the BNP on? Ignore it? Protest outside it? Attack it? I prefer the tactic of picking your battles and planning accordingly to get the best results as opposed to blind loyalty to 'No Platform'. It's a tactic, not a principle surely?

Anyway, well done IWCA.

 

[Fedayn]

First post on here but, from the outside looking in, it appears the IWCA couldn't have played it better. I've no doubt their argument would have won the debate if it was held amongst working class people in the area anyway but it has turned out even better. The BNP shat themselves and have been made to look like kids spitting the dummy out.

With regards to 'No Platform', what were the IWCA supposed to do when the radio presenter invited the BNP on? Ignore it? Protest outside it? Attack it? I prefer the tactic of picking your battles and planning accordingly to get the best results as opposed to blind loyalty to 'No Platform'. It's a tactic, not a principle surely?

Anyway, well done IWCA.

Hmmmmmm.....

 

[Red Storm]

Hmmmmmm.....

I love how suspicious Urbanites are when someone posts for the first time

 

[Fedayn]

I love how suspicious Urbanites are when someone posts for the first time

Nah, it's the name and the time of the post that reminds me of a chat I had recently. Think I might know the fella, good lad as well

 

[Red Storm]

Nah, it's the name and the time of the post that reminds me of a chat I had recently. Think I might know the fella, good lad as well

Fair enough. I didn't mean it in a bad way though. I do it too.

Just makes me laugh that people do get suspicious when there is a first time poster.

 

[Citizen66]

Fair enough. I didn't mean it in a bad way though. I do it too.

Just makes me laugh that people do get suspicious when there is a first time poster.

Probably because of the long time tradition of new posters actually being old time posters in cognito.

 

[love detective]

If Darby was invited to the studio-perhaps he's lying-then he does seem to have ran from a possible debate, fair enough. Everyone's a winner except Darby who now looks a tad timid and the people who will see this and know of Cllr Craft might be a tad bemused at his caricature of said councillor.

It does appear that Darby was lying when he claimed in the comments section in the Oxford Mail story that he had never intended to come into the studio.

The radio station say that he had originally told them that he regularly passes through Oxford so he would be happy to drop into the studio to do the show. Once he became aware of the possibility of an IWCA appearance however, the offer to visit in person was downgraded to a telephone interview (and on the basis that the IWCA were not included), and then not long after he backed out of that as well

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Probably because of the long time tradition of new posters actually being old time posters in cognito.

 

[love detective]

here's the relative bits of the show

 

[love detective]

Forgot to post the article text alongside it as well...

The IWCA's Stuart Craft appeared live on OX105 FM on April 2nd for a scheduled appearance alongside British National Party Press Officer, Simon Darby. In the event Stuart had to do the show on his own as the former BNP deputy leader pulled out refusing to debate with 'a member of the far-left'.

Darby later attempted to limit the damage to his party's reputation by claiming that he had only agreed to a telephone interview and was never actually going to appear in the studio. This retrospective attempt to save face was described as 'laughable' by a radio station representative who explained: 'Simon Darby actually phoned us twice to ask for an interview. He claimed that as he passes through Oxford regularly he would have no problem coming to the studio, so this is what was arranged. It was only when we informed him that the IWCA would be also appearing that he backed out'.

The BNP's previous visit to Oxford was less problematic for them. In 2007 Party Leader, Nick Griffin, appeared at the Oxford Union debating society at the invite of Oxford University students - many of whom, it must be said, share the BNP's elitist anti-working class sentiments. This 'meeting of minds' designed to court respectability/credibility for the views of both Griffin and his co-speaker, 'historian' David Irvin, was made all the more sweeter for the BNP by the fact that the local establishment (including the Labour Lord Mayor, complete with chain of office!) had lined up alongside hundreds of screaming left wing students to try to stop the show. The circus surrounding the event ensured that Griffin and the BNP made headline news across the country. True to form Griffin and his entourage managed to appear composed and confident amid a sea of hysterical opponents hell bent on gagging them - whatever the political cost.

Likewise Griffin's appearance on BBC's Question Time two years later also proved lucrative for the party (and the far-right generally) whatever the claims of the middle class left who failed to grasp the fact that the BNP, who like to present themselves as the voice of the people, could only gain from the sight of representatives of the British establishment lining up to take pot shots at their leader on national TV.

So it would seem that the only organisation that the BNP has no interest in debating with is the IWCA. It is likely that one of the main reasons for this is that, as the only political party to actively oppose the dogma of state sponsored multiculturalism, we are confident to confront all parties from Labour and George Galloway's Respect to the BNP, for ignoring working class concerns in favour of carving up society along ethnic and religious lines for their own cynical ends. It is only when set against the IWCA that BNP's attempt to portray itself as the radical alternative is exposed for the self-serving myth that it is.

 

[ymu]

I've only just seen this thread. Hats off love detective. No idea how you find the patience. Well done the IWCA for spoiling the party Darby has been angling for all this time.

As for the fetishisation of No Platform, based on arguments that are at least a decade out of date ... no need to add to what has been said. Good read, thanks all.

 

[Random]

Good to see the IWCA seeing off the BNP.