IWCA v BNP, on your radio

[love detective]

And the community leaders are turning a blind eye to the drug dealers? For what purpose?

do i really need to hold your hand all the way through this?

if you'd read the post correctly you would see the reference to those who are turning a blind eye, was to the the lib dem/labour councilors - i.e. as long as the votes get delivered on masse, they don't dig too deep - this has certainly been the case in oxford, which the post was about - one such case in point involved the behaviour of the license holders of the bar in the community centre where this radio station is now located (as well as holding the license and running the bar one of them was a head youth worker for a afro-caribbean project) but because they were tight with local labour (Val Smith a local councilor and wife of MP Andrew Smith), it was left to the IWCA to mount a campaign to rid the place of the anti-social activities carried out by those that had been using the centre as a base - drug dealing, violence, murder and so on

 

[love detective]

sorry, you said 'placards', big difference.

You've answered nothing I'm afraid, just said 'I trust Stuarts judgement' and 'so you want us to ignore them then.'

Not very convincing

where did i say 'I trust Stuart's judgement' and 'so you want us to ignore them' and what are all those other posts from me then that don't include those two things you have said I have said?

are you actually reading any of this thread belboid or just skipping all the responses from the names of those you don't like and then making up responses to things that are in your head?

yours has been the best response so far though:-

best not to counter the BNP's argument there & then because there might be someone who doesn't buy the couter argument and then the BNP will benefit

onwards

 

[audiotech]

Stuart Craft "From our experience, explaining our position to working class people from across the ethnic spectrum is an almost effortless process. The fact that some on the ‘left’ assume that this is an area fraught with danger merely exposes their own lack of practical experience in this field, their own lack of genuine empathy with working class communities and above all their own lack of faith in the intelligence of working class individuals."

When born and brought up in a run-down inner-city area, that went through a period of slum clearance, was invited and welcomed into a Muslim home, Asian man married to a white English woman, witnessing race riots in said area, with stabbings, that spilled over into the secondary modern school I was at. The general use of the word "paki" as a pejorative term I hear today, that I haven't heard in a long time, anti-immigration and anti-asylum seekers sentiments rife, the above snippet, taken from Mr Craft's statement appears one hell of a romanticised notion of working class life. Sadly, in my experience it's not one I recognise.

 

[frogwoman]

What of it? What's your point? That the BNP are hypocrites? That cuts no ice, because the logical conclusion is only that a better class of fash is what's needed - i.e. ones that might practise what they preach. And if the BNP weren't hypocrites, if they were (excuse the pun) whiter than white? What then?

that wasn't what i meant. i just think its a bit of mistake to point out the "stereotypical" races of people who are involved in various types of crime. that's all, no other meaning. fair play to the iwca for campaigning against drug dealers and so on, but i don't think that saying "jamaican gangs" and so on is necessary, even if they mostly jamaican (and i don't think they are) just saying "gangs" and then saying not being afraid to shy away from accusations of racism will mean most people know what you mean won't it?

And you know full well that the piece/comment was suggesting neither that it is just pakistani men who groom young girls nor that all pakistani men groom - it was simply pointing out that we don't shy away from condeming such behaviour when it involves a particular group (and the case that made the headlines - i.e. the one actually being referred to did involve a particular group) for fear that condemnation might be seen as racist.

And again, you need to remember the "statement" has seen no wider circulation than this forum - it isn't lifted fromb any IWCA material - it was penned to address specific criticisms made here on this thread.

fair enough.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

When born and brought up in a run-down inner-city area, that went through a period of slum clearance, was invited and welcomed into a Muslim home, Asian man married to a white English woman, witnessing race riots in said area, with stabbings, that spilled over into the secondary modern school I was at. The general use of the word "paki" as a pejorative term I hear today, that I haven't heard in a long time, anti-immigration and anti-asylum seekers sentiments rife, the above snippet, taken from Mr Craft's statement appears one hell of a romanticised notion of working class life. Sadly, in my experience it's not one I recognise.

As far as I can see there is nothing 'romanticised' about the 'snippet' at all - it's a factual description of the experience of the IWCA in oxford based on a decade of work in a working class estate by people who live on it.

 

[belboid]

where did i say 'I trust Stuart's judgement' and 'so you want us to ignore them' and what are all those other posts from me then that don't include those two things you have said I have said?

well,

Well speaking in local terms, I'm sure Stuart Craft knows the area he lives and organises in far better than you or I - and what you and I both know about Stuart is that I am sure he is best placed to judge what is appropriate to do in this situation in relation to what is happening in blackbird leys

and

if the IWCA had followed the advice given by some on here to just ignore them - then the BNP would have been given free reign, now they have no reign.

for starters

are you actually reading any of this thread belboid or just skipping all the responses from the names of those you don't like and then making up responses to things that are in your head?

oh, the irony

yours has been the best response so far though:-

best not to counter the BNP's argument there & then because there might be someone who doesn't buy the couter argument and then the BNP will benefit

onwards

are you being deliberately stupid? The point is to stop the BNP being on, this time, and any other time. Refusing to particpate in the stations ratings chasing stunt would (generally) be a better way of ensuring that happened. As it turnmed out (as i've said before) agreeing to appear has actually worked, and if that was always the intention, then great. But as it wasn't the original intention....

Do you agree the station should never have invited the fucker in the first place?

Do you agree that the BNP will convince some people of their, argument no matter how good the opposing argument is put?

 

[love detective]

the main point was to query your contention that this was all i've said - in fact i've said so much i can't remember what i've not said, so there you go

your right belboid, the dusty haired ostrich technique is the way to go - i'll let the boys know

onwards

 

[audiotech]

As far as I can see there is nothing 'romanticised' about the 'snippet' at all - it's a factual description of the experience of the IWCA in oxford based on a decade of work in a working class estate by people who live on it.

Well up here there are huge estates, where people, asylum-seekers, black people have been driven out of their homes by racist gangs and the BNP getting substantial numbers of people on these estates voting for them. Oxford appears like some idyll in comparison.

Edit: I moved to a large council estate as part of a slum clearance programme and still live in a council flat.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Well up here there are huge estates, where people, asylum-seekers, black people have been driven out of their homes by racist gangs and the BNP getting substantial numbers of people on these estates voting for them. Oxford appears like some idyll in comparison.

Edit: I moved to a large council estate as part of a slum clearance programme and still live in a council flat.

Yes - Yardie drug gangs, shootings, signifcant anti social behaviour issues. Just like an episode of Morse I believe.

 

[audiotech]

Well up here there are huge estates, where people, asylum-seekers, black people have been driven out of their homes by racist gangs and the BNP getting substantial numbers of people on these estates voting for them. Oxford appears like some idyll in comparison.

Edit: I moved to a large council estate as part of a slum clearance programme and still live in a council flat.

Further: There has been a largely unwritten form of what can be at best be described as a 'ghettoisation' of housing allocation up here, that's been a major problem for many years.

 

[belboid]

the main point was to query your contention that this was all i've said - in fact i've said so much i can't remember what i've not said, so there you go

your right belboid, the dusty haired ostrich technique is the way to go - i'll let the boys know

onwards

look, fair do's you have said a lot about various points otheres were making, but I was just talking about in response to me. No reason why you should have intuited that tho, my apologies.

My points still stand tho, the question was how best to stop the fuckers being on there at all.

 

[audiotech]

Yes - Yardie drug gangs, shootings, signifcant anti social behaviour issues. Just like an episode of Morse I believe.

Never watched it.

 

[audiotech]

Remember Griffin angrily ripping a copy of the paper 'Red Action', featured in that recent promo for BTF? What is any "debate" with the BNP gonna turn into do you think?

 

[Joe Reilly]

that wasn't what i meant. i just think its a bit of mistake to point out the "stereotypical" races of people who are involved in various types of crime. that's all, no other meaning. fair play to the iwca for campaigning against drug dealers and so on, but i don't think that saying "jamaican gangs" and so on is necessary, even if they mostly jamaican (and i don't think they are) just saying "gangs" and then saying not being afraid to shy away from accusations of racism will mean most people know what you mean won't it?

Absolutely, let's not describe the race of anyone involved in any type of crime. 'Ourside' will describe the heinous nature of the crime while the BNP are left to add in the perps racial profile?

No danger at all obviously, it might add to their credibility as self-styled truth givers by revealing the full unvarnished reality later.

 

[audiotech]

'Let's not racialise the issue' has been the message. Now it's all change?

 

[Joe Reilly]

Do you agree that the BNP will convince some people of their, argument no matter how good the opposing argument is put?

If some people are 'convinced', regardless of facts, then the bNP are merely adressing their own supporters; speaking to the already converted.

No damage done.

It would of course be a definite problem if someone like say Nigel or even yourself on current form (judging by your tortured logic in this debate) were representing the counter argument.

 

[Fedayn]

From our experience, explaining our position to working class people from across the ethnic spectrum is an almost effortless process. The fact that some on the ‘left’ assume that this is an area fraught with danger merely exposes their own lack of practical experience in this field, their own lack of genuine empathy with working class communities and above all their own lack of faith in the intelligence of working class individuals.​

Do you think the rest of us have some great difficulty on the issue? That we are all stumbling over our laces trying to have conversations with peoiple we live amongst? That we are unable to have this conversation? Seems like the IWCA professing the one true faith similar to some of the more robotic 'Lefts' you profess to disagree with.

As an aside I think some of the concerns about pointing out the possible ethnic origin of groomers/gamngs/sex case etc are a tad unfair. It's a far more open honest approach than point blank refusing to mention it when everyone else is doing so. The difference is i'd think that the IWCA dont, unlike racist/BNP groups, think the acts by these people is part of their actual/racial/religious 'DNA'. To ignore the possible motives behind the attacks would stick out like a sore thumb. To not even mention the issue would be seen as ignoring something and allowing others to 'fill in' the details.

 

[belboid]

If some people are 'convinced', regardless of facts, then the bNP are merely adressing their own supporters; speaking to the already converted.

No damage done.

It would of course be a definite problem if someone like say Nigel or even yourself on current form (judging by your tortured logic in this debate) were representing the counter argument.

But there is damage done. It is helping them to get organised, and there will be a few who hadn't actually come across them before and are impressed. You're just plain wrong.

 

[frogwoman]

As an aside I think some of the concerns about pointing out the possible ethnic origin of groomers/gamngs/sex case etc are a tad unfair. It's a far more open honest approach than point blank refusing to mention it when everyone else is doing so. The difference is i'd think that the IWCA dont, unlike racist/BNP groups, think the acts by these people is part of their actual/racial/religious 'DNA'. To ignore the possible motives behind the attacks would stick out like a sore thumb. To not even mention the issue would be seen as ignoring something and allowing others to 'fill in' the details.

aye, fair enough. my concern was mainly to do with not alienating people/pissing them off through "stereotypical" references to certain ethnicities and types of crime associated with them, not because i thought the IWCA were being intentionally racist

 

[The39thStep]

When born and brought up in a run-down inner-city area, that went through a period of slum clearance, was invited and welcomed into a Muslim home, Asian man married to a white English woman, witnessing race riots in said area, with stabbings, that spilled over into the secondary modern school I was at. The general use of the word "paki" as a pejorative term I hear today, that I haven't heard in a long time, anti-immigration and anti-asylum seekers sentiments rife, the above snippet, taken from Mr Craft's statement appears one hell of a romanticised notion of working class life. Sadly, in my experience it's not one I recognise.

which bit of Stuarts statement romanticised the notion of working class life?

 

[The39thStep]

look, fair do's you have said a lot about various points otheres were making, but I was just talking about in response to me. No reason why you should have intuited that tho, my apologies.

My points still stand tho, the question was how best to stop the fuckers being on there at all.

Bit surprised that your lot in UAF haven't got themselves organised against the radio station

 

[belboid]

how are UAF 'my lot'?

 

[The39thStep]

how are UAF 'my lot'?

well who ever then

 

[audiotech]

which bit of Stuarts statement romanticised the notion of working class life?

Most of the 'effortless' bit.

 

[Sue]

And the community leaders are turning a blind eye to the drug dealers? For what purpose?

Because some of the 'community leaders' and/or their families are implicated in it. And protection rackets. And various other criminal activities.

 

[Sue]

Most of the 'effortless' bit.

Having banged on more doors in BBL and had more discussions about this than I care to think about, I'd say in general it is pretty effortless. Also have to say I've heard loads of nonsense talked about Stuart but the idea that he's got a romanticised view of working class life is certainly a new one....

 

[Fedayn]

Because some of the 'community leaders' and/or their families are implicated in it. And protection rackets. And various other criminal activities.

The perfect examply being some of those involved, such as Michael Showers, in the Liverpool Black Caucus in the 1980s

 

[The39thStep]

Most of the 'effortless' bit.

Tell us more.

 

[The39thStep]

Having banged on more doors in BBL and had more discussions about this than I care to think about, I'd say in general it is pretty effortless. Also have to say I've heard loads of nonsense talked about Stuart but the idea that he's got a romanticised view of working class life is certainly a new one....

Nobody has known the troubles that Audiotech has seen

 

[Citizen66]

What is it with posters switching from posting their own arguments to becoming Stuart Craft's spokesperson and back again. Can he not be bothered to boot up a PC and write out his own arguments or something?