Israel. The real reason for the attack

[dylans]

I am putting this on it's own thread in order to disentangle it from the childish irritations and trolling that have turned the other thread into a fiasco and to create a space to discuss the consequences of this incident.

Because I have a theory and I would like to present it.

A lot of speculation is buzzing around as to why Israel would slaughter unarmed civilians on the high seas. Was it an over reaction? Was it incompetance? Was it secret intelligence that Al Qaeda had an atom bomb in the hold? Was it to intimade future attempts to confront the blockade?

I think the reason is this.

That the attack on the flotilla was the result of a considered and planned decision to kill. They chose to kill and they chose to create this crisis. It wasn't a blunder and it wasn't the actions of "irresponsible protesters"

Why? First for sure to intimidate future protesters from challenging the blockade but that is only part of the reason. They did it for a much more wide ranging and strategic reason.

They decided to kill in order to sabotage fledgling peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians They wanted to invite international isolation to create a situation which would allow Israel to kill the peace talks, to continue with it's expansionist policies and also to pursue a military solution to the Iranian nuclear issue.

On the 10th of March the BBC ran an article headlined. First round of Mid-East indirect peace talks completed and the US talked of sending George Mitchell back to the region.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8670726.stm

These talks had already almost been scuppered by another Israeli tactic. The decision to build settlements in East Jerusalem. But the provocations failed due to Palestinian compromise. Some would say capitulation. This is not what the Israeli's wanted. They wanted the Palestinians to walk. Now they have achieved that goal.

The start of indirect talks in March was halted by a row over the building of 1,600 new Israeli homes in occupied East Jerusalem.
The White House said Israel had agreed that no building would take place at the site, Ramat Shlomo, for two years.

So having failed to prevent peace talks through the blatant provocation of settlement building they needed something else. Let's recall the warning of the US state department just a month ago.

He said: "As both parties know, if either takes significant actions during the proximity talks that we judge would seriously undermine trust, we will respond to hold them accountable and ensure that negotiations continue."

We can now see the contempt to which the Israeli's hold those words.

These talks of course are now dead in the water and, according to this article that was the precisely what this attack was meant to achieve.

That was exactly the intent. Israel can easily wither “international isolation” to the extent the U.S. will continue to protect it from meaningful sanction. Israel actually covets isolation; it permits it to operate in a “nothing to lose” mode. Expropriation of Palestinian land accelerates and its reckless behavior goes unchecked.

Additionally, the attack effectively severs relations with Turkey. Israel wants no part of a non-military solution to the Iranian nuclear issue like the one just brokered by Turkey and Brazil. Turkey’s role in mediating between Syria and Israel, for all the perfunctory plaudits the latter gave it, was actually unwelcome and is now too off the table.

They point out that there should be nothing surprising in this cynical creation of crisis by Israel. They have a long record of doing exactly that.
Remember the second Intifada? Remember how and when it started. It was started in 2000 when Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al Aqsa Mosque provoking riots which were dispersed with boodshed. That visit occurred 6 months before Israeli elections and Sharon then stood on a policy of crushing the intifada which he started. It worked and he won.

The United Nations Human Rights Commission, in a resolution titled “Grave and massive violations of the human rights of the Palestinian people by Israel,” condemned “the provocative visit to Al-Haram al-Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians.”

Likewise in 1996 Israel Shimon Peres launched "grapes of wrath" a 2 week intervention into Lebanon in which over a hundred civilians were killed. However this time it backfired and Peres lost. Guess who won? Yeah, Netanyahuh. In other words, the right profited from the adventure.

Again in 2006, after years of border incursions and provocations the Israeli's used the excuse of the capture of 2 soldiers who were deliberately sent over the border, to create an excuse to justify a widespread invasion of Lebanon in which 1500 Lebanese were killed a million displaced and the countries infrastructure badly damaged.

This was a deliberate attempt to scupper peace and allow Israel to continue and intensify a policy of expansion and settlement. This was a deliberate policy to allow them to pursue an attack on Iran. With, and this is key, the blessing of the United States.

The Israeli's care less about so called "international isolation" why should they? they have the USA and Obama has proved himself every bit as amenable as Presidents before him.

One final thing. Has anyone noticed how quiet Iran has been over this? Anyone know why? I think I have the answer and I will post it tomorrow.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19526

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19483

 

[free spirit]

that seems pretty likely to me, and the fact that the order was apparently given without the approval of the full cabinet, with only a small number of the cabinet consulted on it would seem to me to support this idea as well, as IMO it's less likely that the entire cabinet would have ok'd such an aggressive raid in international waters for the purposes you ascribe to it.

 

[Wookey]

Good post. I look forward to the next installment.

 

[agricola]

Perhaps, though the absolute incompetence of the commandos recorded on the initial (protester-sourced) footage does make me tend to believe that this was more of a massive overreaction caused by a fuckup rather than any planned massacre - after all, they could easily have killed a lot more people than they did (either directly or by some "accidental detonation of smuggled explosives" etc etc).

 

[quimcunx]

after all, they could easily have killed a lot more people than they did (either directly or by some "accidental detonation of smuggled explosives" etc etc).

Jebus. Don't give them ideas.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I am putting this on it's own thread in order to disentangle it from the childish irritations and trolling that have turned the other thread into a fiasco and to create a space to discuss the consequences of this incident.
---

Exactly what others have said. The Israelis are cunning liars who kill deliberately, and who want to scupper all peace overtures, and who just generally don't give a shit.

So again, my question: they won't listen to reason. They'll break accords and treaties.

Invasion? Expulsion?

You tell me.

 

[agricola]

Exactly what others have said. The Israelis are cunning liars who kill deliberately, and who want to scupper all peace overtures, and who just generally don't give a shit.

So again, my question: they won't listen to reason. They'll break accords and treaties.

Invasion? Expulsion?

You tell me.

Oh for fucks sake. Please read dylans first bloody sentence and keep your trolling on the other thread.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh for fucks sake. Please read dylans first bloody sentence and keep your trolling on the other thread.

Who gives a fuck about his first sentence?

It's the bolded sentences that interest me more.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh for fucks sake. Please read dylans first bloody sentence and keep your trolling on the other thread.

ps how is it trolling to simply paraphrase what the op said.

Cunning liars who kill innnocents deliberately, who break every treaty, and who will scupper any attempt at peace.


Did I get any of that wrong?

 

[agricola]

ps how is it trolling to simply paraphrase what the op said.

Cunning liars who kill innnocents deliberately, who break every treaty, and who will scupper any attempt at peace.


Did I get any of that wrong?

The first sentence:

I am putting this on it's own thread in order to disentangle it from the childish irritations and trolling that have turned the other thread into a fiasco and to create a space to discuss the consequences of this incident.

You then post a comment which is, almost word-for-word, taken from very many other comments from yourself on the other thread, and which isnt relevant to the debate dylans was clearly trying to start. It is both disrespectful and twattish. Please sort yourself out.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You then post a comment which is, almost word-for-word, taken from very many other comments from yourself on the other thread, and which isnt relevant to the debate dylans was clearly trying to start. It is both disrespectful and twattish. Please sort yourself out.

The debate is, the Israelis are cunning liars who kill innocents deliberately, break every treaty, and will scupper any peace overture.


Given the existence of such monstrousness, what other debate is more important than, what is to be done about it?

 

[Spymaster]

Perhaps, though the absolute incompetence of the commandos recorded on the initial (protester-sourced) footage does make me tend to believe that this was more of a massive overreaction caused by a fuckup rather than any planned massacre - after all, they could easily have killed a lot more people than they did ....

This.

And they wouldn't have needed to land troops on the boat to do it.

 

[free spirit]

The debate is, the Israelis are cunning liars who kill innocents deliberately, break every treaty, and will scupper any peace overture.


Given the existence of such monstrousness, what other debate is more important than, what is to be done about it?

more like

some elements of the Israeli government and armed forces are cunning liars willing to kill people they see as aiding their sworn enemy, break treaties, and do whatever they see as necessary to scupper any peace agreements they see as being unfavourable to them while they are in such a dominant military position, and can keep their enemy on their knees and impotent while the finish the business of stealing as much of their land as possible and putting it behind the wall they intend to use as the permanent border position.

what is to be done about it?

continue pointing it out and countering the highly effective zionist propaganda machine until eventually, hopefully the majority of the Israeli people see sense enough to kick those responsible out of their positions of power, and elect a more trustworthy government that truly wants to reach a just and lasting peace with it's Palestinian neighbours and countrymen.

along with pressuring our governments to withold military and financial support to Israel until it changes it's ways, and to support the Palestinian people to end the blockade and be able to begin to rebuild their lives and country.

 

[free spirit]

Perhaps, though the absolute incompetence of the commandos recorded on the initial (protester-sourced) footage does make me tend to believe that this was more of a massive overreaction caused by a fuckup rather than any planned massacre - after all, they could easily have killed a lot more people than they did (either directly or by some "accidental detonation of smuggled explosives" etc etc).

or, those in command knew that just going in and killing people without any cause would have played badly with the Israeli public, and too badly with the wider world (ie may have risked damaging their US support base). They therefore planned the operation to be as provocative as possible, with their commandos left as vulnerable as possible in the hope that some would fight back and give them the excuse they needed to unleash the dogs of war

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

more like

some elements of the Israeli government and armed forces are cunning liars willing to kill people they see as aiding their sworn enemy, break treaties, and do whatever they see as necessary to scupper any peace agreements they see as being unfavourable to them while they are in such a dominant military position, and can keep their enemy on their knees and impotent while the finish the business of stealing as much of their land as possible and putting it behind the wall they intend to use as the permanent border position.

what is to be done about it?

continue pointing it out and countering the highly effective zionist propaganda machine until eventually, hopefully the majority of the Israeli people see sense enough to kick those responsible out of their positions of power, and elect a more trustworthy government that truly wants to reach a just and lasting peace with it's Palestinian neighbours and countrymen..

But they've been doing this stuff since 1948. That's over 50 years. They've had many many elections. Each successive govt keeps doing it. Then, the israelis elect another govt, that keeps doing it.

Just how stupid do you think the voters are?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

When the original israelis moved in, do you think they wondered why there were all these abandoned houses and towns?

 

[JimW]

Bold theory dylans, but you're ignoring mounting evidence they may have done it because some Canadian gobshite has nothing better to do with his evenings.

 

[dylans]

Bold theory dylans, but you're ignoring mounting evidence they may have done it because some Canadian gobshite has nothing better to do with his evenings.

I'm seriously thinking of just pulling the op tbh. I have a second instalment already written for tomorrow but I don't think I am going to bother now.

 

[free spirit]

But they've been doing this stuff since 1948. That's over 50 years. They've had many many elections. Each successive govt keeps doing it. Then, the israelis elect another govt, that keeps doing it.

Just how stupid do you think the voters are?

when it comes to US voters, in general I'm willing to say that on this issue, very.

As for the Israelis, as I understand it, all but the mostly ultrazionist ultra-orthodox Israelis have to do 2-3 years of military service, followed by 20 odd years as a reservist, which gives the IDF unprecedented access to virtually the entire population during the years when most are forming their political opinions. I don't think the Israelis are stupid, I do think that they're largely denied access to alternative viewpoints during the core years when most people form their initial worldview.

 

[ymu]

Good OP.

Israel cannot afford peace - no government which explains what it actually means to the Israeli population would stay in power for very long. Most of their water is stolen from the West Bank, for a start. They're living a European lifestyle in the desert - it's not sustainable if they have to share (it's not sustainable now, of course). Near universal conscription also does wonders for unemployment and training, with Uncle Sam picking up the tab. Serious negotiations will not happen whilst the US are happy to continue bank-rolling the Occupation regardless.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

It's a plausible theory, dylans. I don't know if I entirely agree with them intending to kill but I think it's likely they don't care that they made a mess of things and they don't care the story will run and run. It's certainly true they don't want peace in order to extend their settlements, and they certainly don't care about being isolated when they have Uncle Sam's tit to suck on.

Your theory is strengthened when taking order 1650 into account, an order that essentially expels Palestinians at will from the West Bank. More about that can be read here

I look forward to your theory about Iran.

 

[Combustible]

Good post. But like the dispute over settlements these provocative actions could damage Israel's relationship with the US. There have been signs for some time that the US establishment is coming to the realization that there are strategic benefits from at least a partial resolution to the conflict and incidents like this seem to serve to test their resolve on this. If you look at Haaretz (liberal pro US Israeli establishment) there has generally been condemnation and in particular warnings about defying the US. The point about Iran is also a goo one considering that even Bush vetoed a military attack which Israel advocated.

 

[1%er]

If you want to know the mind set of the Israeli Government spend an hour or two putting the names of leading politicians from Israel into Google and see the history of some of these people.

During my lifetime some of them were terrorists, now they are in Government but still have the same mind set they have had for 50 years.

 

[agricola]

Good post. But like the dispute over settlements these provocative actions could damage Israel's relationship with the US. There have been signs for some time that the US establishment is coming to the realization that there are strategic benefits from at least a partial resolution to the conflict and incidents like this seem to serve to test their resolve on this. If you look at Haaretz (liberal pro US Israeli establishment) there has generally been condemnation and in particular warnings about defying the US. The point about Iran is also a goo one considering that even Bush vetoed a military attack which Israel advocated.

This is what should be happening, but I see no evidence that it actually is in any meaningful way - given the recent emasculation of the Security Council investigation into the flotilla thing.

That said, I think there does appear to be a considerable difference between Obama (and especially Biden and Clinton) with the prevailing opinion of Congress towards the current Israeli regime. I cannot remember a time when any head of state of any country was feted as much as Bibi was by Pelosi and Boerner - and the fact that he was able to make this speech to AIPAC, as well as publically humiliating Biden a couple of weeks before, and still be sucked up to is astonishing - though of course all sides were probably just trying to get AIPAC to lobby for them in the coming midterms. (edit) Of course, its Congress' opinion that is more realistic - if Obama does actually go after Bibi then he will be made to pay for it politically.

 

[cesare]

Bold theory dylans, but you're ignoring mounting evidence they may have done it because some Canadian gobshite has nothing better to do with his evenings.

I don't think it's a particularly bold or original theory, but I am very interested to hear what dylans has to say about Iran.

On the Canadian gobshite front ... I don't think it's trolling. It's a fairly bog standard right wing view, set in the backdrop of cultural and national acceptance of subjugation of indigenous peoples. Nothing startling there. But perhaps a bit ... tenacious.

 

[Knotted]

I think it was probably a retreat with guns blazing exercise. The blockade can't continue indefinately - at least not in it's present form. The point of the blockade was always to show the arabs who the boss is. Israel couldn't care a less if Gaza gets tinned fruit or not. Ease the blockade, show the world how generous we are, but make sure they understand we can do whatever fancy to the Gazan population.

 

[Combustible]

This is what should be happening, but I see no evidence that it actually is in any meaningful way - given the recent emasculation of the Security Council investigation into the flotilla thing.

Well i wouldn't expect the US to do a U-turn overnight and I agree that no-one so far as shown any willingness to force Israel to co-operate. But what does seem to be significant is that voices in the Pentagon including Petraeus do seem to be beginning to suggest that the occupation is damaging to American interests.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-gen...-conflict-foments-anti-u-s-sentiment-1.264910

The US is in a very different situation to 10 years ago. It is now occupying two countries and has to face an emboldened Iran which it appears to have no desire to deal with militarily. It also values it's support from Turkey which incidents like this put under strain. The Republicans might try and score a few political points but I can't see them seriously defying the Pentagon if it does reach this conclusion.

 

[elbows]

I think it was probably a retreat with guns blazing exercise. The blockade can't continue indefinately - at least not in it's present form. The point of the blockade was always to show the arabs who the boss is. Israel couldn't care a less if Gaza gets tinned fruit or not. Ease the blockade, show the world how generous we are, but make sure they understand we can do whatever fancy to the Gazan population.

Well one of the purposes of blockades in general, especially evident when it applies to insurgencies, is to punish the general population and make it clear that the hideous shortages will stop if the masses stop supporting the naughty group. Im not sure if this ever works, but that doesnt seem to stop governments following this strategy.

And although there are plenty of occasions where it seems that Israeli action may be designed to hamper peace, there is a view that the conflict is not sustainable for Israel and at some point they will have to allow the 2 state solution.

 

[dennisr]

And although there are plenty of occasions where it seems that Israeli action may be designed to hamper peace, there is a view that the conflict is not sustainable for Israel and at some point they will have to allow the 2 state solution.

The actions initiated by certain sections of the Israeli state probably reflect continuing instabilities and conflicts within that state. The weakened Israeli government is trying to re-establish itself as a military might in the region, as well as for domestic reasons, sending a message out that no one can break the sanctions which are aimed at Hamas. Not only hampering peace but cowing critics deflects attention from the ongoing political and economic crises within Israel and the Occupied Territories.

For workers in Israel, There has never been in Israel’s history a genuine major workers’ party or a big political left camp. The so-called ‘left’ parties were the most loyal guardians of the development of Israeli capitalism (with its nationalism and militarism, right from their inception as middle class nationalist parties with some Stalinist rhetoric) They were never built by a workers’ movement through struggle, nor for the sake of workers’ struggle. Thats the task the Israeli working-class faces.

In Gaza, Hamas’s popularity has been decreasing recently because of their domestic policies (mainly economic but also social), these sanctions and this new slaughter will (if no mass movement is built and no alternative is on offer) lead a number of desperate youth to look to the policies and methods of Hamas. Once again, it shows the urgent need build a mass workers’ movement to break the siege.

Every important gain made in the history of Palestinian struggle has been the result of active mobilisation of the mass of Palestinian people. This was demonstrated particularly during the first Intifada, but also, much more recently and on a smaller scale, in the mass action which temporarily broke through the Rafah border.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps, though the absolute incompetence of the commandos recorded on the initial (protester-sourced) footage does make me tend to believe that this was more of a massive overreaction caused by a fuckup rather than any planned massacre - after all, they could easily have killed a lot more people than they did (either directly or by some "accidental detonation of smuggled explosives" etc etc).

Thing is, the commandos weren't incompetent, they were deployed inappropriately (I suspect because the mission commander didn't know how crowded the ships were and/or thought that the sight of abseiling armed troops would have cleared the decks), and someone somewhere, who thought they'd have a political and PR success on their hands, is digging themselves a deep foxhole.