Is this woman a transphobe?

[smokedout]

About the ‘it’s not changing it’s being’ thing..
When I watch this, or any of the hundreds that followed this one, I still don’t know whether it’s a joke or what.


If it started as a joke it’s not anymore- This person is now a seriously high profile spokesperson for trans rights, met the president and so on, and has numerous big companies whose products they’re paid to endorse / wear etc because of their massive following.
Is this really someone who is revealing their profound deeply felt gendered self and not someone having a laugh ? Am I a bad person for not being able to watch them without feeling like it’s just a mockery ? Probably.

If you watch any of her pre-transition videos she's no different. She was just as over-excitable, theatrical and annoying as she is now, although millions of people who follow her presumably like what she does. I don't think it's fair to accuse her of constructing a parody of women as some have, I think it's just who she is. She's an influencer who went viral and exploited it to the hilt just like any other influencer would, they are all pretty cringe. And I do think it's worth noting that depending on our age most of us were taught to despise people like her and it's worth examining whether unconscious homophobia, transphobia and gendered expectations may play a role in how we respond to her. Thinking back to my very early childhood I was probably a bit like that until I had it literally beaten out of me and ended up cynical and dour and I wonder if she triggers some kind of resentment in me. People who seem that happy are so fucking irritating.

I doubt her transition is a grift either. She's been on hormones for a year, that's not trivial or something someone might do for attention. It involves significant changes to her body, some of which may be permanent even if she ended up detransitioning and she seems to be flourishing. I'm not sure there's many cis people who would do that to themselves whether for money or fame, neither of which was guaranteed when she started out.

Also what has happened to her is fucking awful. She's going to have a target on her back for a long time and it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone tries to take a potshot at her. It must be terrifying and she's handled it with surprising grace. A bit of compassion wouldn't go amiss no matter how annoying someone might find her.

 

[bimble]

Interesting that Dylan seems like a happy person to you. I don't get that feeling at all . Agree that what's happened, all the negative as well as positive attention, must be scary. The idea that this whole performance is not a parody of women though, i don't want to fight about it but just don't know what to say to that tbh.

 

[cesare]

I'm not familiar with Dylan, but she seems to be an airheaded annoying nitwit and there are plenty of those around. I don't really see her annoyingness as a parody, she's just irritating and would have been no matter her gender.

 

[bimble]

I'm not familiar with Dylan, but she seems to be an airheaded annoying nitwit and there are plenty of those around. I don't really see her annoyingness as a parody, she's just irritating and would have been no matter her gender.

That video i posted, you don't think thats a joke?

 

[smokedout]

Interesting that Dylan seems like a happy person to you. I don't get that feeling at all . Agree that what's happened, all the negative as well as positive attention, must be scary. The idea that this whole performance is not a parody of women though, i don't want to fight about it but just don't know what to say to that tbh.

I don't think it's really correct to say that very camp gay men are parodying women which is how she came across before she came out. That feels kind of regressive and doesn't seem like it leaves much space for gender non-conformity. And it doesn't seem very fair to expect her to undergo an entire personality change just because she's come out as trans.

 

[cesare]

That video i posted, you don't think thats a joke?

No, not at all. I see loads of equally annoying influencers (and also in real life as well) that behave in a similar way. They're not usurping my space or parodying it. Doesn't threaten me, I don't care.

 

[bimble]

i've just had a google and see what you mean, about pre-girl dylan being the same!

 

[cesare]

Is this the Germaine Greer "pantomime dames" argument?

 

[bimble]

No, not at all. I see loads of equally annoying influencers (and also in real life as well) that behave in a similar way. They're not usurping my space or parodying it. Doesn't threaten me, I don't care.

I think its a comedy video, i hope so anyway ! I think ignoring the comedy element would be much worse.

 

[smokedout]

That video i posted, you don't think thats a joke?

That particular video may be a joke, or contain jokes, which could be argued to be parodying women or could be parodying gender stereotypes, but that doesn't mean her entire identity or her transition is a joke, or that her entire personality is constructed to parody women.

 

[bimble]

That particular video may be a joke, or contain jokes, which could be argued to be parodying women or could be parodying gender stereotypes, but that doesn't mean her entire identity or her transition is a joke, or that her entire personality is constructed to parody women.

yes, agree. But I think you do see how it can be perceived as offensive the whole show ? And the seriousness with which this person has been received by politicians and big business since it took off. No daft female youtube star would get a letter like this.

 

[cesare]

I think its a comedy video, i hope so anyway ! I think ignoring the comedy element would be much worse.

It might be, I don't know. But the context of you posting it here during this bump of an old thread isn't a casual oh look at this comedy video was it? You were inviting people to get het up about parody in an anti-trans context.

 

[bimble]

It might be, I don't know. But the context of you posting it here during this bump of an old thread isn't a casual oh look at this comedy video was it? You were inviting people to get het up about parody in an anti-trans context.

Not looking to stir het-upness.

 

[Rob Ray]

No daft female youtube star would get a letter like this.

Almost certainly not. Thing is though we know why she's getting serious treatment. It's because she happens to have been right (wrong) place at a specific time with a profile that fit a circumstance and caught important, tastemaking eyeballs. I think something Dave Chapelle (not a man I often cite) said in 8 Minutes and 46 Seconds about the elevation of George Floyd to the status of national symbol and subsequent monstering due to his background is relevant here:

Oh, he was the this, he did that, and he was, he’s a drug addict. And he was not a hero. And why does the Black community make him a hero? Why do you chose him as a hero?” We didn’t chose him, you did! They killed him, and that wasn’t right, so he’s the guy.

Similar happens with pretty much every clash over social issues, people sometimes get the limelight for the same reasons as a meme might rise - it's not always so easy to understand the process, or even like the person, but it is what it is.

 

[bimble]

Almost certainly not. Thing is though we know why she's getting serious treatment. It's because she happens to have been right (wrong) place at a specific time with a profile that fit a circumstance and caught important, tastemaking eyeballs. I think something Dave Chapelle (not a man I often cite) said in 8 Minutes and 46 Seconds about the elevation of George Floyd to the status of national symbol and subsequent monstering due to his background is relevant here:



Similar happens with pretty much every clash over social issues, people sometimes get the limelight for the same reasons as a meme might rise - it's not always so easy to understand the process, or even like the person, but it is what it is.

Yeah. From what little i've read, Dylan is not universally loved or accepted by trans people as any sort of deserving figurehead - the high profile was resented and accusations of being more of a drag act quite commonly felt. I think you're right that businesses (nike budweiser etc) & politicians latched on for their own reasons and the fallout likewise not the fault of the person in the middle of it all.

 

[smokedout]

yes, agree. But I think you do see how it can be perceived as offensive the whole show ? And the seriousness with which this person has been received by politicians and big business since it took off. No daft female youtube star would get a letter like this.

I don't think it's beyond imagination that a daft female youtube star may get a letter like that if she happened to be campaigning or raising awareness about something the President wished to associate themselves with. I'm sure there's been plenty of feminist campaigners and female celebrities who have recieved similar letters or endorsements from Presidents. And the endorsement from big business is hardly suprising. She's got millions of followers, and it was just an instagram product tie in - she's not the face of Nike or Bud Light. It's how influencers make their money and how marketeers promote their products to different market segments.

I guess I can see how it could be perceived as offensive if you thought this was a personality she adopted post transition as part of some act. But it's not, so unless someone finds camp gay men offensive then I don't really see how it becomes offensive once someone transitions.

 

[bimble]

unless someone finds camp gay men offensive then I don't really see how it becomes offensive once someone transitions.

This is a properly good point and i will have to go away and think about it.

Being a camp gay man and then transitioning is a coincidence though, right? (sexual preference & gender identity are not related are they).

 

[smokedout]

This is a properly good point and i will have to go away and think about it.
Being a camp gay man and then transitioning is a coincidence though, right? (sexual preference & gender identity are not related are they).

I don't think it's entirely a coincidence, trans women are more likely to be attracted to men than cis men are and it may well be that she felt more able to be herself within the gay community. I haven't watched her stuff enough to know that much about her but quite a lot of trans women fall into the gay scene before coming out, because they fancy men, and if they happen to be camp or feminine it's safer. I don't imagine someone like Dylan would have faired very well in a very laddish or masculine environment even pre-transition.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Being a camp gay man and then transitioning is a coincidence though, right? (sexual preference & gender identity are not related are they).

That's right, they're two separate things, although you can be both.

 

[ginger_syn]

This is a properly good point and i will have to go away and think about it.

Being a camp gay man and then transitioning is a coincidence though, right? (sexual preference & gender identity are not related are they).

yes , there are a lot of camp gay men who haven't transitioned and none that i personally know have said they wanted to transition .

 

[bimble]

I don't think it's entirely a coincidence, trans women are more likely to be attracted to men than cis men are and it may well be that she felt more able to be herself within the gay community. I haven't watched her stuff enough to know that much about her but quite a lot of trans women fall into the gay scene before coming out, because they fancy men, and if they happen to be camp or feminine it's safer. I don't imagine someone like Dylan would have faired very well in a very laddish or masculine environment even pre-transition.

I don't think its a coincidence either. but talking about the proportion of the young women who are identifying as trans boys what % of them are same sex attracted, that is not a good plan, for this saturday night.

 

[smokedout]

I don't think its a coincidence either. but talking about the proportion of the young women who are identifying as trans boys what % of them are same sex attracted, that is not a good plan, for this saturday night.

Tbh this is where I lose patience with a lot of gender critical rhetoric. The idea that trans people are so stupid and incapable of introspection that it might never have occurred to us we might be gay or lesbian is an incorrect as it is insulting. Most trans people have done far more soul searching about their sexuality and gender identity than the average person, certainly the average straight person, and are well aware what the difference between gay and trans is.

 

[bimble]

The idea that trans people are so stupid and incapable of introspection that it might never have occurred to us we might be gay or lesbian is an incorrect as it is insulting.

thats not what i said, at all. But shall bid you good night.

 

[smokedout]

Tbh this is where I lose patience with a lot of gender critical rhetoric. The idea that trans people are so stupid and incapable of introspection that it might never have occurred to us we might be gay or lesbian is an incorrect as it is insulting. Most trans people have done far more soul searching about their sexuality and gender identity than the average person, certainly the average straight person, and are well aware what the difference between gay and trans is.

In reality the opposite was the case historically because there was so little information and awareness of what it meant to be transgender. Quentin Crisp wrote about this late in his life:

Looking back, Crisp says ‘My daydream as a child was of growing up to be a very worldly, very beautiful woman… I was in a terrible bind about who and what I was, something she [his mother] didn’t recognize or bother to think about’. Crisp had no framework within which to express these feelings: while he references trans pioneers such as Jan Morris, he had no awareness of them at the time, and reassignment surgery is viewed, even in retrospect, as having been an unattainable goal (‘had the operation been available and cheap when I was young… I would have jumped at the chance’).


It is deeply moving to read Crisp’s realisation of the suffering that this silence has cost him: ‘Had I been born a woman, none of my life would have happened and I could have been happy. Well, perhaps that’s stretching a point. Let’s just say I might not have been quite as unhappy‘.

Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labelled myself homosexual and having been labelled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a ‘gay’ life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body. I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life. If you are reading this and are gay, think of me as one of your own even though you now know the truth. If it’s confusing for you, think how confusing it has been for me these past ninety years.’

 

[quimcunx]

Blood and glitter. Can't argue with that.

I like this one. Good costume game.

 

[hitmouse]

Blood and glitter. Can't argue with that.

I like this one. Good costume game.

I think you might be posting on the wrong thread, but you might also be making a very insightful observation about the nature of gender, it's hard to be sure?

 

[quimcunx]

Definitely a profound comment on what it means to be a woman.

Oops. I'll leave it there for some much needed levity.

 

[Cloo]

I have a cousin in early 20s who came out as a trans woman a few years ago - it profoundly just made sense to everyone around her, I mean, literally as soon as she could walk and talk somehow everything about her was very feminine. But some people might say, 'Oh 20 years ago, someone like her would have lived as a gay man and been OK'

I've been having a thought lately about whether we have a false dichotomy of 'there are only gender non-conforming people who should transition and others who shouldn't and would regret it'?

Apologies to any trans people if this seem fatuous and not my intention in any way to trivialise being trans. But I do wonder whether there might be some people who, 20 years ago, no, it would not have occurred to them to transition. And they would have lived their lives, and been OK, maybe it would have felt like something was missing, but they wouldn't be miserable or suicidal. And now, someone exactly the same as that person might think 'I could be trans' and explore it and conclude that they are, and they transition and they are also fine, and probably better than they would have been if they hadn't transitioned. They'd have to live with the difficulties of being a trans person, but been happier in other ways. I just wonder if we're making too big a thing of it? It doesn't have to solve everything or ruin everything in a person's life.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Definitely a profound comment on what it means to be a woman.

Oops. I'll leave it there for some much needed levity.

No
Real women are going fucking apeshit about the cha cha cha

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It addresses an aspect of the discussion which has not been satisfactorily dealt with, albeit an extreme example.

How has it not been satisfactorily dealt with?

The aspect of the discussion which has not ever been properly addressed is the issue of trust. Someone states they are transgender and all we have to go on is their word. People have been known to lie, to get things wrong, to make mistakes, to hallucinate, to live out fantasies.

This primarily affects how many women see the world, see men. Men aren't to be trusted. Men you don't know, particularly, and in individual cases men you do know. So when a man says he is a woman why should he be believed? This becomes truer when being asked to accept a man as a woman when no surgery or hormone treatment has occurred, I.e. the person in question is still a biologically intact male. (I'm not advocating either of those treatments, by the way). Truer still when being asked to accept other categories of being, (genderqueer, non-binary, agender, gender-fluid etc) without clear definitions or understanding.

Trust is important. With the 'discussion' so polarised that becomes difficult. It's also the case that the wide range of views on all sides make it harder to be fair. It's easy to assume that someone aligns themselves with a particular point of view when they don't. Christian fundamentalists may say similar things to gender critical feminists, but not necessarily exactly the same and they will have arrived at their conclusions via different routes. Others will not have even considered or be aware of whole areas of controversy.

How to get trust and balance into the discussion?