Is this woman a transphobe?
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Athos
Well-Known Member
About trans women? Who?
keybored
Well done. You remember cat good.
Maybe you meant "benevolent sexism". "benign sexism" doesn't fit the context you used it in.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I do not intend to end my self-imposed ban on arguing with people on this forum about these issues.
I just stopped by to quote this from an article.
www.theguardian.com
I just stopped by to quote this from an article.
Javid accuses Starmer of denying ‘scientific fact’ in trans rights row
Labour leader says it is not right to say ‘only women have a cervix’ and calls for ‘respectful debate’ over issue
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Think I'd add "Fine if not".
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Of course. Occasionally nice to know what people mean with ambiguous statements, but not essential.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Gonna need to see your working out there old chum.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I would leave the anecdote as it is, it is surreal when someone comes crashing onto urban completely unschooled in the political language of urban. If you ask me it doesn't happen often enough
Athos
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone would argue with you if your point is that Javid is wrong about this (as he is about so much else), to the point of being dangerous.I do not intend to end my self-imposed ban on arguing with people on this forum about these issues.
I just stopped by to quote this from an article.
Javid accuses Starmer of denying ‘scientific fact’ in trans rights row
Labour leader says it is not right to say ‘only women have a cervix’ and calls for ‘respectful debate’ over issue
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
Ditto
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yes that would be part of my point, and also that Starmers answer was about more than simply saying the right thing to the press and trying not to tread on a landmine in this debate.
Anyway I'm going from this thread now but I suppose I may as well provide the most obvious answer to your 'Who?' question of yesterday. The departed shit stirrer Judith B, an answer that should surprise nobody. Whether there were any others I cannot say, since in recent years I've only read a small fraction of posts on this subject.
This is urban, previously home to the would you fuck a tranny threads. Still it's good to know everyone who laughed along to that is no longer transphobic but now just gender critical and has 'concerns'.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I dont remember entire threads dedicated to that question. I do remember an especially overt transphobe here asking someone that question when one of the large threads hit an especially low point, and frankly I think it even appalled some of the people who would normally be on 'that side' of the debate. In any case my previous remark was in regards to the 2 years since I stopped joining in with these 'discussions', not all the horror from the prior period.
Anyway I dont want to get dragged back into this because I banned myself because I could not trust myself not to get too personal in the face of such disgusting transphobia, the tolerance of it, and the pathetic moderation of it. But also because its always the same people driving the shit, and there is only so much of my time that I can bring myself to dedicate to the same old handful of bigots and shit stirrers. Those who wear their badge of ignorance with pride arent worth it, shame on them forever more. Although I do have sympathy for the couple of people whose problematic posts on the subject were partly sponsored by their own struggles with potential gender dysphoria that they dealt with in a manner that may have worked for them but left them ill-equipped to empathise with those who found a different solution.
Clearly I am getting dragged back in so please excuse me for failing to respond to any further messages sent my way on this.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Was that actually a thing here??? Kinnell
Athos
Well-Known Member
Edited: I was wrong, see below.Was that actually a thing here??? Kinnell
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Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm no fan of JudithB, but I remember when challenged on the point she explicitly confirmed that she wasn't using "penis people" to refer to trans women (she was referring to men).
Straight blokes would you have sex with a post-op transsexual?
Which descends into a discussion about whether it would be morally acceptable to 'smash his face in' if you had sex with a trans women without being aware of her being trans.Women - would you have a relationship / shag a post op FTM transsexual?
and the somewhat gentler poll:Would you consider a relationship with a transsexual?
No way José! 50.6%Posted not really as an example as anything specific to urban but of how trans people were routinely discussed not that long ago. Which is why some of us raise a sceptical eye when gender criticals of that generation claim they were never transphobic, they always loved trans people, but now they have lots and lots of concerns.
Athos
Well-Known Member
In that case, I withdraw my comment and apologise to you for saying your claim was disingenuous. I didn't recall such threads, and disapprove of them.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Kinnell (again).
elbows
Well-Known Member
Ah, those are from a completely different time period to what I was referring to. The shit I was on about was many years later, circa January 2018 when one overt transphobe asked the question in a very serious thread.
I certainly dont miss that older era when pure ignorance, dodgy language and uncomfortable jokes were a far larger part of the mix. But what came later, when people should have known better, was even more depressing in some ways.
edited to add - I think its noteworthy that looking at the date of those threads, 2005 and 2008, demonstrates that even when sloppily compared to the superficial world of television, u75 was well behind the times. Given that for example Paddington Green started in late 1998 and Nadia won Big Brother in 2004.
I certainly dont miss that older era when pure ignorance, dodgy language and uncomfortable jokes were a far larger part of the mix. But what came later, when people should have known better, was even more depressing in some ways.
edited to add - I think its noteworthy that looking at the date of those threads, 2005 and 2008, demonstrates that even when sloppily compared to the superficial world of television, u75 was well behind the times. Given that for example Paddington Green started in late 1998 and Nadia won Big Brother in 2004.
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co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Lots of innuendo here - you got any actual names of people who did this?
ETA - I don't doubt the existence of the threads obviously - I mean people who claim to be gender critical being behind them, linked to them etc?
The suggestion that gender critical people are all transphobes is a bit like the one a page upthread about unnamed posters who 'disappeared a few years ago' who apparently made illogical and incoherent statements that also were "transphobic".
It's a stupid tactic - the "bigotry" one - outside silly little bubbles like U75 it just ain't going to wash.
Well a lot of the ‘names’ seemingly don’t post anymore, and the ones that do don’t appear to post on this thread or not from a GC position.
Presumably then folk are guilty of something for having been a member when those threads existed.
Presumably then folk are guilty of something for having been a member when those threads existed.
I'm not sure urban was any better or any worse than anywhere else to be honest, probably marginally better if anything. The first time I actually met other trans people in person was in 2005. They were a couple who were the archetypal mumsnet approved old school transsexuals, who had fully medically transitioned, although despite claims to the contrary about this group they very much considered themselves women and used women's spaces - with some caution it should probably be said. Their advice was unless you absolutely cannot live another day as a man and are suicidal do not transition, do not come out, do not tell anyone, live a secret life to manage dysphoria if you must, go to the clubs if you want some social space (by which they meant the chaser clubs which was about the only spaces trans people could go out safely in public although it meant spending the whole night fighting off sexual assault by the often predatory men who went there to pick up trans women). The reason for this advice was that they had lost everything through transition, their jobs, families, friends, and largely lived as social pariahs. It had taken them five years just to get known and liked locally enough to the point they could have a drink in their local pub without relentless harassment - and they would never take a trans guest there because it was felt that 3 trans people in one space would be unnecessarily provocative.
And trans people of that generation internalised this, it was normal, it was just what it meant to be trans and the primary concern of most trans people was getting through the day without being abused or beaten up. I don't remember anyone ever saying shall we fucking do something about this, whilst there were some tiny groups like Press For Change trying to influence legislation the trans people I met were steadfastly apolitical - dont draw attention to us, it's too dangerous was a common sentiment. Most trans people had been gender non-conforming in some way as kids, and experienced a life time of being told they were freaks and deviants and learnt to either repress it, until they couldn't anymore, or hide themselves away if they did transition. So I guess in some ways a lot of us believed that we were at fault, that to be trans was a bad thing somehow and so it had to be kept in the shadows. We deserved it.
But, what was also happening at this time was a younger generation of trans people were finding each other through the internet and forming communities and they weren't ashamed of who they were or prepared to live closeted or invisible lives. And when they emerged, as the dreaded TRAs, they were furious and deservedly so. They may not have got everything right, but their cause was just and their passion changed things for the better, changed the world in fact - although the inevitable reaction to that from the older generations, and the attempts to roll back rights long ago won, suggests that the fears of those who said don't draw attention to us were not unfounded.
So whilst those threads might seem shocking when viewed today I doubt they would suprise anyone who is trans who lived through that period. We remember. And we don't want to go back there.
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elbows
Well-Known Member
Yes I suppose its quite likely that any claim I might make that this place was worse than average was probably down to having doomed expectations that it might be significantly better than average.
I suppose I might also concede that terrible jokes and incredibly clumsy stumbling around a subject is part of what happens when changing attitudes are underway and people are trying to explore the changing landscape and come to terms with some of their attitudes no longer being the acceptable norm.
I was certainly more tolerant of ignorance back then than I have been in more recent years. But that may be partly down to me becoming more aware of and disgusted by a generation gap opening up between my generation and those younger, one where I feel like I have more in common with those younger than me than those my own age.
I suppose I might also concede that terrible jokes and incredibly clumsy stumbling around a subject is part of what happens when changing attitudes are underway and people are trying to explore the changing landscape and come to terms with some of their attitudes no longer being the acceptable norm.
I was certainly more tolerant of ignorance back then than I have been in more recent years. But that may be partly down to me becoming more aware of and disgusted by a generation gap opening up between my generation and those younger, one where I feel like I have more in common with those younger than me than those my own age.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Now hopefully I will crawl off in peace by ending with more quotes on the same subject as started me posting on this thread last night.
Labour conference: Emily Thornberry backs Sir Keir Starmer over trans row
The shadow trade secretary says it is “factually inaccurate” to say only women have a cervix.
www.bbc.co.uk
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Headlines for feature articles/front-pagers are usually decided by the editor of the publication.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's hardly only a "left" obsession. The right are just as guilty.
I don’t frequent “right” discussion forums though. But point accepted.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
"Not that long ago" is somewhat disingenuous, given the newest thread above is 13 yrs old.
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