Is this woman a transphobe?

[8ball]

I'm not even sure I know what's meant by GC. If it means 'against gender stereotyping', I'm absolutely in and can't really see what reasonable person wouldn't be.

Beyond that, I must admit i don't really know what it actually means or what people think it means. And I suspect I'm not alone in that?

It comes with a shitload of baggage unrelated to the words it’s comprised of, sadly.

 

[Knotted]

I'm not even sure I know what's meant by GC. If it means 'against gender stereotyping', I'm absolutely in and can't really see what reasonable person wouldn't be.

Beyond that, I must admit i don't really know what it actually means or what people think it means. And I suspect I'm not alone in that?

It's that but also the radical feminist position that women's oppression is biological sex based and in addition to that that sex not gender defines womanhood/manhood. It's really the last bit that causes the heat as it encompasses beliefs that can (but don't always) include that trans women are imposters and possibly/probably (if you're Sheila Jeffreys) perverts, that trans men are confused lesbians, and that there's a trans agenda pushed by trans rights activists (tra's) trying to trans our kids, eliminate lesbians and sometimes eliminate women all together.

 

[8ball]

Reckon calling homophobes homophobes is accurate enough. They have an irrational fear of us, which is a phobia.

As for the hypocrisy of those who only want their version of humanity to be recognised as such, who do you mean here? Hetero/religious people?

‘Phobia’ to mean ‘hatred’ or at least ‘antipathy’ is a fairly common usage tbf, such as in chemistry.

Hatred and fear have common roots.

 

[smokedout]

I'm not even sure I know what's meant by GC. If it means 'against gender stereotyping', I'm absolutely in and can't really see what reasonable person wouldn't be.

Beyond that, I must admit i don't really know what it actually means or what people think it means. And I suspect I'm not alone in that?

It's that but also the radical feminist position that women's oppression is biological sex based and in addition to that that sex not gender defines womanhood/manhood. It's really the last bit that causes the heat as it encompasses beliefs that can (but don't always) include that trans women are imposters and possibly/probably (if you're Sheila Jeffreys) perverts, that trans men are confused lesbians, and that there's a trans agenda pushed by trans rights activists (tra's) trying to trans our kids, eliminate lesbians and sometimes eliminate women all together.

I think it's really moved beyond that and is now a movement which opposed to what they call gender ideology, rather than gender stereotypes or gender itself. There's plenty of right wing people who are openly anti-feminist and committed to the ideas of male/female brains who now call themselves gender critical. And gender ideology is one of those useful phrases like critical race theory or cultural Marxism that can basically mean whatever you want depending on the audience.

 

[Sue]

It's that but also the radical feminist position that women's oppression is biological sex based

Well sure, some of it obviously is. I don't often hear of men not getting jobs (for example) because they're of childbearing/rearing age. (And yes this does still happen to women.)

and in addition to that that sex not gender defines womanhood/manhood. It's really the last bit that causes the heat as it encompasses beliefs that can (but don't always) include that trans women are imposters and possibly/probably (if you're Sheila Jeffreys) perverts, that trans men are confused lesbians, and that there's a trans agenda pushed by trans rights activists (tra's) trying to trans our kids, eliminate lesbians and sometimes eliminate women all together.

All that ^. If someone feels they are/presents as a man or a woman of whatever sexuality -- each to their own and whatever makes folks happy.

Have I seen people use gender stereotypes as some kind of shorthand for gender? Yes I have -- for example being told a nine year old girl was probably trans (despite her never saying anything suggestive of that) because she was a tomboy rather than just being a girl who was into stuff that's generally viewed as stereotypically make. l I think that's very problematic.

I think my views are not very unusual. Or they certainly aren't among the women I know anyway.

 

[Sue]

I think it's really moved beyond that and is now a movement which opposed to what they call gender ideology, rather than gender stereotypes or gender itself. There's plenty of right wing people who are openly anti-feminist and committed to the ideas of male/female brains who now call themselves gender critical. And gender ideology is one of those useful phrases like critical race theory or cultural Marxism that can basically mean whatever you want depending on the audience.

I obviously think the male/female brain thing is bollocks. Especially given I've spent the last 30 years studying/working in a very male-dominated field.

And of course have experienced all kinds of unfair nonsense in that time due to being a woman.

(I do wonder if men are quite aware of just how much discrimination women still face. It's less overt than it used to be but absolutely still there.)

 

[krtek a houby]

I obviously think the male/female brain thing is bollocks. Especially given I've spent the last 30 years studying/working in a very male-dominated field.

And of course have experienced all kinds of unfair nonsense in that time due to being a woman.

(I do wonder if men are quite aware of just how much discrimination women still face. It's less overt than it used to be but absolutely still there.)

Stunningly overt this side of the world. And not just from the dinosaurs who run the place. There's hope with the younger people, of course. But there's a vast mindset that needs to undergo seismic changes.

(Oddly, more tolerance for LGBT people, although it hasn't translated to marriage. Yet.)

 

[19force8]

It's that but also the radical feminist position that women's oppression is biological sex based and in addition to that that sex not gender defines womanhood/manhood. It's really the last bit that causes the heat as it encompasses beliefs that can (but don't always) include that trans women are imposters and possibly/probably (if you're Sheila Jeffreys) perverts, that trans men are confused lesbians, and that there's a trans agenda pushed by trans rights activists (tra's) trying to trans our kids, eliminate lesbians and sometimes eliminate women all together.

Lately this seems to have gone beyond the biological essentialism of women are one thing and men are another (which I thought wasn't a feminist position anyway) to an emphasis on chromosomes in order to deny the changes brought about by hormones and surgery, bot physically and behaviourally can alter the fact of having XX or XY chromosomes (in GC eyes, obviously). Basing your views on an innate divide between men and women that's rooted in cellular biology strikes me as a gender confirming position rather than gender critical.

The whole "transing away the gay (or lesbian)" line also flies in the face of reality. From the trans people I've known and from most accounts I've read, the ratio of straight to gay trans people is close to the inverse of that among cis people. Transitioning doesn't (usually) change a person's sexuality and trans people seem fairly evenly distributed across the spectrum. So when Jeffreys and co claim straight men become trans women to gain access to lesbians, but that lesbians become trans men to have relationships with women they're relying on ignorance to get away with a contradictory narrative.

 

[kropotkin]

I'd be embarrassed if I was coming across as a patronising mansplainy twat but yeah, guess we are all different.

You and Edie are coming across badly here - spookyfrank is explaining without ad hominem and yet you both keep stooping to it.
He (?) could just be disagreeing with you in good faith. That doesn't mean he is "mansplaining". That's just cheap and beneath both of you.

 

[kropotkin]

Why is it curious to you that Edie, who has a professional interest in reading the Lancet, would be reading the Lancet?

I bet Edie has never read a copy of the lancet. Perhaps an article. Edie?

 

[bimble]

I am not going to expend any of my limited stocks of outrage on people like the American Civil Liberties Union. They are obviously not the enemy.
But I do feel that this below is crazy, and totally self defeating. There must be a better way than this.
Am curious whether others here feel differently, think it’s a good decision they made to adapt her statement in this way.

 

[ice-is-forming]

I am not going to expend any of my limited stocks of outrage on people like the American Civil Liberties Union. They are obviously not the enemy.
But I do feel that this below is crazy, and totally self defeating. There must be a better way than this.
Am curious whether others here feel differently, think it’s a good decision they made to adapt her statement in this way.

View attachment 290182

I approve of what's quoted

 

[kropotkin]

I agree that it is a bizarre thing to do.

 

[bimble]

I approve of what's quoted

Does that mean you’d like it if we all, all the time, tried to stop using the words woman and man unless talking about a particular person whose gender identity we were sure of?

Obviously just saying 'people' every time would cause issues, so there'd have to be new language to talk about things like womens representation gender pay gap and so on.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I agree that it is a bizarre thing to do.

Probably just misguided though, rather than overtly evil.

The really evil people are only too happy using the word 'woman'. And they're let off Scot free by all this stuff. Instead it's the ACLU and the Vagina Museum taking all the flak. The real bastards out there must be laughing themselves sick at that.

 

[bimble]

So what should we say instead of women and men?

In a sentence like for instance when RBG said '[People] belong in all places where decisions are being made. It shouldn't be that [people] are the exception', that obviously doesn't work , it needs something else.
Or when we talk about the taliban banning half of students from returning to school. what should we say to describe that half.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I bet Edie has never read a copy of the lancet. Perhaps an article. Edie?

Strange thing to say.

 

[kropotkin]

Kabbes posted that Edie was probably reading the Lancet (presumably as she's a nurse).

 

[ice-is-forming]

Does that mean you’d like it if we all, all the time, tried to stop using the words woman and man unless talking about a particular person whose gender identity we were sure of?

Obviously just saying 'people' every time would cause issues, so there'd have to be new language to talk about things like womens representation gender pay gap and so on.

No. Tbh I just believe to have or not have a baby is the person's choice.

 

[bimble]

No. Tbh I just believe to have or not have a baby is the person's choice.

Oh. Yeah I think we all agree on that.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So what should we say instead of women and men?

In a sentence like for instance when RBG said '[People] belong in all places where decisions are being made. It shouldn't be that [people] are the exception', that obviously doesn't work , it needs something else.

Women seems fine in that context, probably the only word you could use and still retain the intended meaning tbh.

I've not actually suggested anyone should stop using these words. Don't think anyone else here has either. The only examples I've seen of anyone actually policing the use of language in this context has been the massive internet pile-ons against people who are broadly on the side of the angels trying (and in some cases failing) to use inclusive language.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I bet Edie has never read a copy of the lancet. Perhaps an article. Edie?

I don't think we have any evidence of that. The Lancet headline does seem to have been reposted here shortly after it appeared on Twitter and got massively amplified by some people whose usernames have snidey remarks about pronouns in them, but the timing there could be coincidental.

 

[rutabowa]

Does that mean you’d like it if we all, all the time, tried to stop using the words woman and man unless talking about a particular person whose gender identity we were sure of?

Obviously just saying 'people' every time would cause issues, so there'd have to be new language to talk about things like womens representation gender pay gap and so on.

I think in that quote specifically the change works as a tool to make people think, as e.g. my partner is “they” and had a baby and so without that change would not have been properly included. I don’t think it was vital to change it, don’t think it always needs to be done, and would not make a big deal about it, but I also don’t think it is totally ridiculous to make the change either.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Oh. Yeah I think we all agree on that.

The whole lgbti thing, as is happening is passing me by tbh. I know with www there are no borders but.. There's so many things I put my passion n energy into atm it's ridiculous. No one's in charge ffs. Its like a jigsaw puzzle with no lid and pieces missing. Non-sense.

Sorry. I do understand the value and importance of language though. I'm angry that the noun woman is being cancelled. That's just wrong. I'll never cancel it. But then the world is pretty out there atm. Personally ( and sorry to all marginalised people ) but even taking intersectionality into consideration there are other hills I'd opt to die on first other than saying woman or body ( person would be preferred) with a vagina.

Iirc some urbs vaginas are in the museum? TP springs to mind.

 

[rutabowa]

Tbh if you asked me like a year or 2 ago I probably would have said it was totally ridiculous tho (changing that quote I mean); I have adjusted my views

 

[_Russ_]

Many years ago a female friend of mine came out as a Lesbian, some time later I visited her and used her toilet...placed at a position and height that placed it at about eye level to someone standing facing the toilet (a position almost exclusively used by males of course) was a long lambasting ramble of disgust and hatred towards men)

I am in no way saying that Lesbians are all man-haters, but be sure that bigoted people exist amongst all sexual preferences even the 'cool' ones and they are often the most vocal when it comes to expressing how 'other' people should treat them

 

[SpookyFrank]

Many years ago a female friend of mine came out as a Lesbian, some time later I visited her and used her toilet...placed at a position and height that placed it at about eye level to someone standing facing the toilet (a position almost exclusively used by males of course) was a long lambasting ramble of disgust and hatred towards men)

I am in no way saying that Lesbians are all man-haters, but be sure that bigoted people exist amongst all sexual preferences even the 'cool' ones and they are often the most vocal when it comes to expressing how 'other' people should treat them

Where are you getting 'sexual preference' from any of this?

 

[Santino]

Many years ago a female friend of mine came out as a Lesbian, some time later I visited her and used her toilet...placed at a position and height that placed it at about eye level to someone standing facing the toilet (a position almost exclusively used by males of course) was a long lambasting ramble of disgust and hatred towards men)

I am in no way saying that Lesbians are all man-haters, but be sure that bigoted people exist amongst all sexual preferences even the 'cool' ones and they are often the most vocal when it comes to expressing how 'other' people should treat them

Bizarre post.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm angry that the noun woman is being cancelled.

19.74 billion results on google for the word 'woman'. So whoever's cancelling it has got their work cut out for them. I reckon it'll take them at least another fortnight. Add in printed media and spoken language and 'woman' probably has until christmas, maybe even the new year.

If you don't see me post anything after this it's probably because one of the Kanzellation Korps' death squads got to me. But at least I made it to the top of this nice hill first.

 

[Knotted]

The use of the word "woman" gets questioned in certain circumstances (all medical/anatomical as far as I have seen) for inclusion reasons. In all these conversations that I've ever seen about the word "woman" getting cancelled it's extrapolation from these examples not evidence of even a half serious campaign to do this.

It would be really odd if trans women in particular, who want to be understood as women would want to cancel the word "woman".