Is there a reason for the riots?

[ViolentPanda]

I would say it is exactly the opposite.

For me, one of the defining features of humans is a near-universal loathing of James Blunt.

 

[weltweit]

For me, one of the defining features of humans is a near-universal loathing of James Blunt.

And yet we find ourselves humming along to some of his best songs... nature is so cruel

 

[Treacle Toes]

So why is it pretty much universal, why does it come so easily?

I have already answered that earlier.

And so is it's opposite. A person has to be nurtured in a particular way to transcend those fears and insecurities.

How is this different to what I have said already?

]
Civilisation and society are two very different things. One requires rigid hierarchical structures and laws in order to function, the other can rub along on an ad hoc basis. I use "civilised society" to represent the social where it functions within the structures imposed by civilisation. Late-modern urbanised cultures, for example.

That's clearly where we disagree then.

I feel like I asked you an important question that you have not answered:

You can't talk about 'us' as communities without accepting that I am not just speaking about my individual experience. How are you defining community btw? How do you know mine is different from yours?

 

[TruXta]

They're the worst. One of them traumatised my little bro at the zoo when we were younger, wanking at him, and then flinging a turd!

Laugh? I nearly wet myself!!

That's just having a GSOH.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Actuall, Rutita, regarding Us vs. Them, I don't think that is learned. More precisely, I think the tendency to on average prefer in-groups to out-groups is way too pervasive to be purely learned behaviour.

Have you read my earlier posts? I have posted my opinions about this.

 

[TruXta]

tbf I never said they were. They do display altruistic behaviour towards others not from their group, however.

Sorry, lbj, I haven't read the last few pages, so nothing personal. Apes are much like us, just as capable of heartbreaking compassion as they are of utter cruelty.

 

[TruXta]

Have you read my earlier posts? I have posted my opinions about this.

Sorry, no

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry, lbj, I haven't read the last few pages, so nothing personal. Apes are much like us, just as capable of heartbreaking compassion as they are of utter cruelty.

Indeed. I've not said different.

 

[CyberRose]

"Most people who commit crime are poor"

That's what you actually said. I disagree.

I think you're falling into a functionalist view of the world which is totally innaccurate, divisive & lazy/

What type of crime?

Sorry, I'm not being specific. I'm talking about crime that provides an income. So not violent crimes etc

Maidmarion, does that answer any of your concerns at all? Or do you still think that people who commit crime that makes them money don't come from poor backgrounds?

 

[gabi]

in answer to the op, no.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

in answer to the op, no.

Really? This is an uncaused event? Call the philosophers!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I feel like I asked you an important question that you have not answered:

You mean the bit you added to your post while I was answering/after I had already answered it?

I'll break your question down, if you don't mind.

You can't talk about 'us' as communities without accepting that I am not just speaking about my individual experience.

Can't I? Not even if you've couched your comments so that they present as from an individual, i.e. "as a person of 'mixed race' "?
Can you see how I just might think you're saying one thing when you actually mean another?

How are you defining community btw?

Community - group of people with something(s) in common such as locale, age, ethnicity, religion, shared hobby etc in any combination you care to imagine.

How do you know mine is different from yours?

That's easy.

Yours is north of the Thames, mine is south, therefore you are a "bad stranger" from an alien community.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's just having a GSOH.

Me or the bonobo?

 

[gabi]

Really? This is an uncaused event? Call the philosophers!

i blame myself personally. im the reason these kids nicked flowers from a florist and smashed up an 89yo barber's shop. me!

 

[TruXta]

Me or the bonobo?

The bonobo. You were the cruel one, laughin at your brother like that.

 

[TruXta]

i blame myself personally. im the reason these kids nicked flowers from a florist and smashed up an 89yo barber's shop. me!

Finally someone that owes up to their guilt!

 

[DexterTCN]

Russell Brand has a very interesting opinion piece in the grauniad. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron

He mentions thatcher, the bankers, politicians and a lot more. I like it.

 

[CyberRose]

But you haven't done that clearly at all.

Maybe in your haste (enjoyment?) to accuse people of racism you haven't thought enough about what I've actually said?

You have also neglected to see that one of the social inequalities that minorities face is racism and that manifests in them being disporportionately stopped and searched, given harsher sentences, etc

While I agree to an extent with that, neither of us have any proof, one way or another, that our position is correct. There are seven times more black people in prison than their population would suggest - that is either because they are committing more crime or because the system is inherently racist (or it is a combination). But neither hypothesis can be proved so where does that leave us?

...You don't want to believe that, you seem to want the main reason to be because they are more likely to be criminal.

My position all along has been concerned with economic background. If you were capable of understanding what I have said then you would realise that I am saying race has no bearing on whether somebody will commit crime, what I've said is that a person's economic background is the main reason people commit crime (altho as above, this is crime that provides an income)

 

[Treacle Toes]

You mean the bit you added to your post while I was answering/after I had already answered it?

Did I? Must have been the dual posting scenario, not done purposefully.

I'll break your question down, if you don't mind.

Can't I? Not even if you've couched your comments so that they present as from an individual, i.e. "as a person of 'mixed race' "?
Can you see how I just might think you're saying one thing when you actually mean another?

I used my ethnicity to demonstrate because you seemed to be making assumptions about racism being inherent in humans, that my experience of being Mixed completely undermines.

Community - group of people with something(s) in common such as locale, age, ethnicity, religion, shared hobby etc in any combination you care to imagine.

That's easy.

Yours is north of the Thames, mine is south, therefore you are a "bad stranger" from an alien community.

So no obvious difference at all then.

 

[CyberRose]

That description being what?

I am in no position to be able to answer that, am I?

 

[gabi]

I've heard this twice tonight...

'I can't condone it, but...'

its up there with...

'Some of my best mates are black, but...'

Idiots.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Maybe in your haste (enjoyment?) to accuse people of racism you haven't thought enough about what I've actually said?

Erm, until you scroll back, realise that I did not call you racist and come back and apologise I will no longer engage with you. I have challenged the points you made earlier in the thread and suggested you needed to do some more research. I did not call you a racist. You have demonstrated though, a lack of awareness and knowledge about racism.

 

[grit]

I've heard this twice tonight...

'I can't condone it, but...'

You dont need to condone something to understand it.

 

[CyberRose]

Erm, until you scroll back, realise that I did not call you racist and come back and apologise I will no longer engage with you. I have challenged the points you made earlier in the thread and suggested you needed to do some more research. I did not call you a racist. You have demonstrated though, a lack of awareness and knowledge about racism.

Do you think what I've said is racist? Because that's how it has come across. If you don't then fair enough I will apologise...

 

[Treacle Toes]

Do you think what I've said is racist? Because that's how it has come across. If you don't then fair enough I will apologise...

I think you have demonstrated a lack of awareness and have tried to demonstrate how.

I did not call you a racist and do not want you to post that I did. I ask that you scroll back so that you can be sure yourself.

 

[CyberRose]

I think you have demonstrated a lack of awareness and have tried to demonstrate how.

Not sure I follow what you're saying here?

I did not call you a racist and do not want you to post that I did. I ask that you scroll back so that you can be sure yourself.

No you did not directly, but your comments came across as implying I was being racist...again, if that was not the case I will apologise

 

[Treacle Toes]

Not sure I follow what you're saying here?

IMO on this thread, you have demonstrated , a lack of awareness and knowledge about racism and it's effects. It's not a crime, nor is me sharing with you why/how I think you are doing this.

 

[CyberRose]

IMO on this thread, you have demonstrated , a lack of awareness and knowledge about racism and it's effects.

Now that's not fair, I've said a number of times that racism will have an affect on police actions towards ethnic minorities, the difference between me and you is that I also think that police actions are not necessarily directed towards certain ethnicities but towards certain economic backgrounds. Now you might not agree with that and stand by your belief that disproportionate police action towards ethnic minorities is purely down to racism, but the truth is neither of us can prove either of the two arguments.

It's not a crime, nor is me sharing with you why/how I think you are doing this.

You see, when you use phrases like "why you are doing this" - that comes across as accusations of racism...

 

[Treacle Toes]

You see, when you use phrases like "why you are doing this" - that comes across as accusations of racism...

Not if you take into account the context of the converstion we were having earlier today and the suggestions that you do some research about certain things that myself and others were saying to you. I didn't use the word 'why' above as in you have a motive, I meant because you are making assumptions without taking into account x, y or z factor/evidence.

 

[CyberRose]

Not if you take into account the context of the converstion we were having earlier today and the suggestions that you do some research about certain things that myself and others were saying to you. I didn't use the word 'why' above as in you have a motive, I meant because you are making assumptions without taking into account x, y or z factor/evidence.

If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, put the links up yourself. Don't tell me to "do some research" because you think I'm wrong, I could tell you to do some research because I think you're wrong, but that would make me look like a smug little bastard.

Now I suspect that any evidence you will post will simply highlight that ethnic minorities get stopped more, but that doesn't prove anything.

If you have any evidence that ethnic minorities do not face any more economic hardship proportionally when compared to white people then I'd accept that as some evidence...ah sod it, here's some stats for you:

http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml

What do you think would be the implication for crime?