Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Proper Tidy]

So you agree with the article and think potential problems are just red herrings?

Dunno. I've been to ireland a fair bit and my other half is sort of irish/lived there for years but even so I don't know enough to know what's workable and what isn't. Did agree with the sentiment that 'the irish issue' is being used cynically by lots of different parties with no fucks really given for the people affected

 

[philosophical]

So, basically you have no problem with the proposals, just what would happen in the event of transgressions?

Anyone with an IQ above that of a single celled organism, would assume very large fines, and trucks & their loads being impounded, much like what happens elsewhere.

I have a problem with the proposals because they represent a hard border and constraint on the common travel area and the Good Friday Agreement.
The reason I say that is because these so called alternative arrangements of technology, checks in places, registered documentation, trusted trader schemes and the like will need enforcement and sanctions.
You have said it yourself, fines and impounding and the like.
The agencies and systems chasing border crossing trucks, attempting to issue and enforce fines, seizing and impounding vehicles, capturing and restraining people will exist as constraints which don't exist in the current arrangements. Those agencies and systems will be targets, never mind the cost of it all.
A convoy of vans and packed buses can cross twenty times a day in either direction at each crossing point unmarked and unregistered in any way, herds of animals can be driven hither and thither, tell me what the Alternative Arrangements report says about reacting to events like that.
Any enforcement system between the two divergent entities (the UK and the EU) will be a variation on what happens in Ireland now, and will be a target for dissidents.
You presumably have thoroughly read the Alternative Arrangements report you urge on me, would you please point out the part that outlines in detail how all and every kind of transgression is reacted to, and how that squares with the GFA and the agreed common travel area.

 

[butchersapron]

I have a problem with the proposals because they represent a hard border and constraint on the common travel area and the Good Friday Agreement.
The reason I say that is because these so called alternative arrangements of technology, checks in places, registered documentation, trusted trader schemes and the like will need enforcement and sanctions.
You have said it yourself, fines and impounding and the like.
The agencies and systems chasing border crossing trucks, attempting to issue and enforce fines, seizing and impounding vehicles, capturing and restraining people will exist as constraints which don't exist in the current arrangements. Those agencies and systems will be targets, never mind the cost of it all.
A convoy of vans and packed buses can cross twenty times a day in either direction at each crossing point unmarked and unregistered in any way, herds of animals can be driven hither and thither, tell me what the Alternative Arrangements report says about reacting to events like that.
Any enforcement system between the two divergent entities (the UK and the EU) will be a variation on what happens in Ireland now, and will be a target for dissidents.
You presumably have thoroughly read the Alternative Arrangements report you urge on me, would you please point out the part that outlines in detail how all and every kind of transgression is reacted to, and how that squares with the GFA and the agreed common travel area.

Can you tell me why IRELAND is still in the british empire please.

 

[philosophical]

Can you tell me why IRELAND is still in the british empire please.

What on earth are you on about?

 

[butchersapron]

What on earth are you on about?

Did Ireland leave the British Empire?

 

[philosophical]

Did Ireland leave the British Empire?

Maybe you could define your terms.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe you could define your terms.

Can't answer it? Is Ireland part now of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

 

[Pickman's model]

It turns out the border isn't perhaps the most pressing issue... No-deal Brexit will ‘instantly disrupt’ UK’s role as £174bn global data hub

No deal means legal problems with data transfers from the eu till some sort of compliance established. And it's rather late in the day for that to get sorted out

 

[Smokeandsteam]

For those interested here is the LeFT founding principles document. This answered questions about how LeFT aims to develop, resist dispersion and promote bottom up working class campaigns and activity.

Core Principles

 

[philosophical]

Can't answer it? Is Ireland part now of the United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Do you mean the Republic of Ireland?
Do you mean in terms of political and legal institutions?
Do you mean in terms of a common currency?
You have now morphed from 'the British Empire' to 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland'. Which do you mean?

 

[andysays]

I have a problem with the proposals because they represent a hard border and constraint on the common travel area and the Good Friday Agreement.
The reason I say that is because these so called alternative arrangements of technology, checks in places, registered documentation, trusted trader schemes and the like will need enforcement and sanctions.
You have said it yourself, fines and impounding and the like.
The agencies and systems chasing border crossing trucks, attempting to issue and enforce fines, seizing and impounding vehicles, capturing and restraining people will exist as constraints which don't exist in the current arrangements. Those agencies and systems will be targets, never mind the cost of it all.
A convoy of vans and packed buses can cross twenty times a day in either direction at each crossing point unmarked and unregistered in any way, herds of animals can be driven hither and thither, tell me what the Alternative Arrangements report says about reacting to events like that.
Any enforcement system between the two divergent entities (the UK and the EU) will be a variation on what happens in Ireland now, and will be a target for dissidents.
You presumably have thoroughly read the Alternative Arrangements report you urge on me, would you please point out the part that outlines in detail how all and every kind of transgression is reacted to, and how that squares with the GFA and the agreed common travel area.

Can you explain specifically how these proposals represent a 'constraint' on the Good Friday Agreement, ie which part or parts of that agreement explicitly rule out the measures in the proposals.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you mean the Republic of Ireland?
Do you mean in terms of political and legal institutions?
Do you mean in terms of a common currency?
You have now morphed from 'the British Empire' to 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland'. Which do you mean?

Ok, Ireland is now part of the UK in your mad world.

 

[brogdale]

For those interested here is the LeFT founding principles document. This answered questions about how LeFT aims to develop, resist dispersion and promote bottom up working class campaigns and activity.

Core Principles

Thanks for posting this.

 

[andysays]

Ok, Ireland is now part of the UK in your mad world.

I find kind of funny, I find it kind of sad...

 

[butchersapron]

He thought he was doing some zenoic paradox stuff and he's ended up trapped. Because nothing has ever happened. We haven't and can't leave the EU and Ireland never left GB. It's impossible.

 

[philosophical]

Ok, Ireland is now part of the UK in your mad world.

What on earth are you on about?

 

[butchersapron]

What on earth are you on about?

Can you not follow your own logic you time-wasting want-wit?

 

[teuchter]

Can you explain specifically how these proposals represent a 'constraint' on the Good Friday Agreement, ie which part or parts of that agreement explicitly rule out the measures in the proposals.

If you are genuinely interested there are some responses here.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...FjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3Ny1QP3z-KZEqgDNLEwCWr

 

[Pickman's model]

If you are genuinely interested there are some responses here.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...FjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3Ny1QP3z-KZEqgDNLEwCWr

andysays this is a PDF from the armagh-based centre for cross-border studies

 

[andysays]

If you are genuinely interested there are some responses here.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...FjABegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3Ny1QP3z-KZEqgDNLEwCWr

I'm genuinely interested in whether philosophical can answer my question, which has been put to him a number of times without any coherent response.

I'll have a look at your thing later

 

[cupid_stunt]

I have a problem with the proposals because they represent a hard border and constraint on the common travel area and the Good Friday Agreement.

No, they don’t, the whole point is to avoid a hard border, which is defined by any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls at the actual border. The proposals also not only guarantee the common travel area, but looks to reinforce it, whilst also ensuring the principles of the Good Friday Agreement are upheld.

The reason I say that is because these so called alternative arrangements of technology, checks in places, registered documentation, trusted trader schemes and the like will need enforcement and sanctions.
You have said it yourself, fines and impounding and the like.
The agencies and systems chasing border crossing trucks, attempting to issue and enforce fines, seizing and impounding vehicles, capturing and restraining people will exist as constraints which don't exist in the current arrangements. Those agencies and systems will be targets, never mind the cost of it all.
A convoy of vans and packed buses can cross twenty times a day in either direction at each crossing point unmarked and unregistered in any way, herds of animals can be driven hither and thither, tell me what the Alternative Arrangements report says about reacting to events like that.
Any enforcement system between the two divergent entities (the UK and the EU) will be a variation on what happens in Ireland now, and will be a target for dissidents.

For some strange reason you seem to be trying to redefine what is meant by a ‘hard border’, there was always going to be the need for some checks, and whole aim is to avoid those actually happening on the actual border, which is what these proposals aim to do.

You presumably have thoroughly read the Alternative Arrangements report you urge on me, would you please point out the part that outlines in detail how all and every kind of transgression is reacted to, and how that squares with the GFA and the agreed common travel area.

I haven’t read the whole 270 pages, but have skim read the summary, which I’ve found the link to again & is below, it goes into some detail about the ‘implementation, application, supervision and enforcement’, and is certainly the starting point for a constructive conversation, when finer details can be agreed.

At the end of the day, both sides want to avoid a ‘hard brexit’, and both sides want to avoid a ‘hard border’. The backstop without a time limit is a non-starter, as it’s been rejected by parliament three times. We are were we are, so these proposals need urgent serious consideration as a basis for going forward.

https://www.prosperity-uk.com/wp-co...Final-Report-Executive-Summary-18-07-2019.pdf

 

[philosophical]

Can you explain specifically how these proposals represent a 'constraint' on the Good Friday Agreement, ie which part or parts of that agreement explicitly rule out the measures in the proposals.

Amongst others there are
Dotted point six in section one of the Rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity section.
Point 1 in section two of the economic social and cultural issues section.
Point one under security.
Article one section two (the external impediment bit).

You are welcome to do your own research.
Maybe you are the poster that can explain how the alternative arrangements can deal with all transgressions with regard to the Geography, topography and practicalities of the suggestions in the 'alternative arrangements'. Perhaps you can point out the specific part of the alternative arrangements proposals text that addresses transgressions.
If you are a lexiter or are part of LeFT go ahead and impose those alternative arrangements if you like, they will not work in my view and you won't have your brexit.
Lexiters and LeFT are axiomatically allied to the likes of Johnson, Farage and Priti (let the threat of food shortages pressure the Irish) Patel. Carry on, although you might wish to tell Priti Patel that the Republic of Ireland is one of the most food secure countries of the world.

 

[butchersapron]

Amongst others there are
Dotted point six in section one of the Rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity section.
Point 1 in section two of the economic social and cultural issues section.
Point one under security.
Article one section two (the external impediment bit).

You are welcome to do your own research.
Maybe you are the poster that can explain how the alternative arrangements can deal with all transgressions with regard to the Geography, topography and practicalities of the suggestions in the 'alternative arrangements'. Perhaps you can point out the specific part of the alternative arrangements proposals text that addresses transgressions.
If you are a lexiter or are part of LeFT go ahead and impose those alternative arrangements if you like, they will not work in my view and you won't have your brexit.
Lexiters and LeFT are axiomatically allied to the likes of Johnson, Farage and Priti (let the threat of food shortages pressure the Irish) Patel. Carry on, although you might wish to tell Priti Patel that the Republic of Ireland is one of the most food secure countries of the world.

Where is the UK on this chart?

I would argue that Ireland's strong position is because it never left the UK. Or, at least, given your logic, there must be some link - right?

 

[philosophical]

No, they don’t, the whole point is to avoid a hard border, which is defined by any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls at the actual border. The proposals also not only guarantee the common travel area, but looks to reinforce it, whilst also ensuring the principles of the Good Friday Agreement are upheld.



For some strange reason you seem to be trying to redefine what is meant by a ‘hard border’, there was always going to be the need for some checks, and whole aim is to avoid those actually happening on the actual border, which is what these proposals aim to do.



I haven’t read the whole 270 pages, but have skim read the summary, which I’ve found the link to again & is below, it goes into some detail about the ‘implementation, application, supervision and enforcement’, and is certainly the starting point for a constructive conversation, when finer details can be agreed.

At the end of the day, both sides want to avoid a ‘hard brexit’, and both sides want to avoid a ‘hard border’. The backstop without a time limit is a non-starter, as it’s been rejected by parliament three times. We are were we are, so these proposals need urgent serious consideration as a basis for going forward.

https://www.prosperity-uk.com/wp-co...Final-Report-Executive-Summary-18-07-2019.pdf

Indeed. Don't you think that sanctions against transgressions will lead to conflict as suggested by the Police Service of Northern Ireland?
I agree the term 'hard border' confuses the issue, a border is a border however it is described.
When you say both sides want to avoid a border, how does that square with 17.4 million people who voted for one by voting leave?
If there are two different regulatory systems side by side, including regulations regarding services, in what way are those differences expressed and managed?
You mention physical infrastructure and checks not being on the actual border itself, the Jacob Rees Mogg manoeuvre. Do you think anybody will be taken in by that? Constraints are constraints and there is every likelihood they will be resisted however hidden away they may be.

In short there will be a brexit enforced difference in the future to what there is now. I believe that will conflict with the peace process, you seem to believe it can be assimilated.
The issue is something mentioned by others not only me.
Right now I am tempted to wish for the EU to tell Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and LeFT to go fuck themselves and have their so called no deal. Following that I hope the Republic of Ireland withdraws from the single electricity market on the island of Ireland, and Mark Francois and Theresa Villiarse can Captain the floating generators moored off the Northern Irish Coast.

 

[philosophical]

Where is the UK on this chart?

I would argue that Ireland's strong position is because it never left the UK. Or, at least, given your logic, there must be some link - right?

What are you on about?

 

[butchersapron]

Right now I am tempted to wish for the EU to tell Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and LeFT to go fuck themselves and have their so called no deal. Following that I hope the Republic of Ireland withdraws from the single electricity market on the island of Ireland, and Mark Francois and Theresa Villiarse can Captain the floating generators moored off the Northern Irish Coast.

They can't because you can't leave anything.

Now, there was no electricity in NI before 2007? Or at least it was just unionist electricity right?

 

[teuchter]

What are you on about?

You'll not get anywhere with him; he'll never actually explain any point in a way that is intended to help you understand what he's saying.

 

[philosophical]

They can't because you can't leave anything.

Now, there was no electricity in NI before 2007? Or at least it was just unionist electricity right?

What on earth are you on about?

 

[butchersapron]

What on earth are you on about?

Why are you trying to blow apart the GFA agreement by insisting on a hard militarised border between NI and the ROI?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Right now I am tempted to wish for the EU to tell Boris Johnson, Priti Patel and LeFT to go fuck themselves and have their so called no deal. Following that I hope the Republic of Ireland withdraws from the single electricity market on the island of Ireland, and Mark Francois and Theresa Villiarse can Captain the floating generators moored off the Northern Irish Coast.

That doesn't surprise me one bit, because you believe a solution can not be found, in fact you seem to want no solution, you want chaos, so you can claim some victory for the hundreds of posts you have made on this subject.

Yet, Ireland, the EU, and the UK all want to find a solution, and one will have to be found at some point.