Proper Tidy
Arsed
It's like when your mum and dad are rowing lots, maybe they'll shag it out maybe they'll divorce maybe they'll both fuck off and you keep the house
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
So now we have to watch Johnson and Merkel on the job? Can we not just align with North Korea instead, please?
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Latest blog post from LeFT on Ireland.
Tommy McKearney – Brexit and the Future of Ireland
by Leave, Fight, Transform
A recent article in the Irish Times reported retired Irish diplomat Sean Ó hUigínn quoting Edmund
Burke’s remark that the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland, which is to hear no more about it. Undoubtedly, with the Brexit backstop causing turmoil in the House of Commons, senior members of the Conservative
party would very likely secretly share that view.
Many in Ireland might well suggest that had the English acted on Edmund Burke’s observation and left Ireland way back then, they might be experiencing fewer problems at the moment.
However, we can’t change the past and the Irish question has returned to torment Westminster.
Whatever about history, the Brexit debate does not follow the same line of argument in Northern Ireland, as it does in Britain. Local protagonists make different, although paradoxically
related, calculations when deciding their position on this issue. Moreover, London and Dublin are also playing the Ulster card, yet more often than not
they both conceal the entirety of their reasoning for doing so.
Underlying every political issue in Northern Ireland is the constitutional question of whether the area
should continue to be governed from London or have sovereignty transferred to Dublin. Magnifying the importance of this now are two crucial facts. In the first instance there is the perennial fixation on changing demographics, which are indicating the inevitability within the coming decades of a majority in favour of ending the union. This is compounded by the obvious failure of the
Six Counties to function as a normal political entity.
It is not that people in Northern Ireland are unaware or indifferent to Brexit. It is however the case, that for the most part, they see it as secondary. A contributory factor to this
outlook is the attitude of the British and Irish governments with the former speaking of the need to preserve the precious union and the latter raising alarm over a hard border. Unsurprisingly therefore, the two major local
political parties, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Fein have focussed on the constitutional impact of Brexit.
The DUP favours the hardest of withdrawal options in the hope that it will result in creating maximum
divergence between north and south and thereby reinforce the partition of Ireland. While this position wins favour in Unionist heartlands (and among the European Research Group), it has caused concern among some middle-class Unionist supporters who fear economic disruption. Nevertheless, the party’s greatest fear is losing its niche as the principal defender of ‘Protestant
Ulster’ and therefore feels obliged to persist with its policy.
Disappointingly for those on the left who wish to rupture with the EU, Sinn Finn has changed its
long-time opposition to the EU. Instead of highlighting the neo-liberal threat from Brussels it now takes the flawed ‘Remain and Reform’ position. With a 55% majority in the Six Counties in favour of remaining, Sinn Fein is making the
obvious case that London disregards the will of the Northern Irish. The party has also led a campaign that focuses on the possible, albeit greatly
exaggerated, difficulties posed by a hard border.
Meanwhile the British and
Irish governments are spinning their own self-serving tales around Brexit.
British Prime Minister
Johnson rejects the backstop option claiming this is because of his deep and
abiding affection for the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In
reality, this love affair is based firmly on Commons arithmetic. To stay in
office and fend off a general election, the Tory party has had to retain DUP
support. Nor is the Irish government completely frank either with its
statements about the impact of Britain leaving the European Union. Dublin has
focused greatly on the threat that this poses to the Good Friday Agreement in
general and to the maintenance of peace in particular.
Alarmist claims about a
return to the pre-1994 ‘Troubles’ are overdone. In spite of the recent death of
journalist Lyra McKee, there is little evidence of any real appetite for a
return to the widespread conflict of previous decades. If anything, the tragedy
illustrated the depth of opposition to armed groups. Moreover, it should also
be born in mind that Britain leaving the European Union will not, in itself,
alter the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the UK whether
there is a withdrawal deal or not.
Let’s not forget either
that both the British and Irish governments have stated categorically that they
will not create infrastructure along the border. Boris Johnson has repeated on
several occasions that the UK it will not impose tariffs on goods moving
northwards. This means that any checks that may arise from a no-deal Brexit
would be carried out in the Republic and there is every indication that these
will take place well away from the frontier. Incidentally, since the island was
partitioned almost a century ago there is no record of republicans ever
attacking a southern Irish customs post.
In a nutshell, the Brexit
debate in Ireland, North and South, has largely missed the essential elements
of the argument. Northern Ireland is one of the poorest regions of the United Kingdom.
Average income is 8.5% less than in Britain and average disposable income is
less than 40% of that in London and the economy is in ongoing decline as
evidenced by the difficulties faced by the once iconic Harland & Wolff
shipyard. The economic situation in the Republic appears to be infinitely
better. However, this disguises an increasingly unequal society with tens of
thousands homeless, a two-tier health service leaving the less well-off at a
major disadvantage and increasing number of workers in either low-paid or
precarious employment.
On both sides of the border
the answer to this lies in breaking with free-market capitalist economies,
whether controlled by neoliberals sitting in London or in charge of the
European Union. This in essence is the left wing case in relation to Brexit and
applies to Ireland as much as it does to Britain. Instead of working people
discussing the necessity of having democratic socialist control of the economy,
the powers that be have diverted attention towards a highly unlikely resumption
of armed conflict, export delays and possible traffic jams at border crossings.
Above all else, clarity and transparency around this issue are essential here in Ireland as well as in
Britain. The LeFT campaign is therefore not just timely but very necessary and is entitled to all the support we can give it.
Tommy McKearney – Brexit and the Future of Ireland
by Leave, Fight, Transform
A recent article in the Irish Times reported retired Irish diplomat Sean Ó hUigínn quoting Edmund
Burke’s remark that the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland, which is to hear no more about it. Undoubtedly, with the Brexit backstop causing turmoil in the House of Commons, senior members of the Conservative
party would very likely secretly share that view.
Many in Ireland might well suggest that had the English acted on Edmund Burke’s observation and left Ireland way back then, they might be experiencing fewer problems at the moment.
However, we can’t change the past and the Irish question has returned to torment Westminster.
Whatever about history, the Brexit debate does not follow the same line of argument in Northern Ireland, as it does in Britain. Local protagonists make different, although paradoxically
related, calculations when deciding their position on this issue. Moreover, London and Dublin are also playing the Ulster card, yet more often than not
they both conceal the entirety of their reasoning for doing so.
Underlying every political issue in Northern Ireland is the constitutional question of whether the area
should continue to be governed from London or have sovereignty transferred to Dublin. Magnifying the importance of this now are two crucial facts. In the first instance there is the perennial fixation on changing demographics, which are indicating the inevitability within the coming decades of a majority in favour of ending the union. This is compounded by the obvious failure of the
Six Counties to function as a normal political entity.
It is not that people in Northern Ireland are unaware or indifferent to Brexit. It is however the case, that for the most part, they see it as secondary. A contributory factor to this
outlook is the attitude of the British and Irish governments with the former speaking of the need to preserve the precious union and the latter raising alarm over a hard border. Unsurprisingly therefore, the two major local
political parties, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Fein have focussed on the constitutional impact of Brexit.
The DUP favours the hardest of withdrawal options in the hope that it will result in creating maximum
divergence between north and south and thereby reinforce the partition of Ireland. While this position wins favour in Unionist heartlands (and among the European Research Group), it has caused concern among some middle-class Unionist supporters who fear economic disruption. Nevertheless, the party’s greatest fear is losing its niche as the principal defender of ‘Protestant
Ulster’ and therefore feels obliged to persist with its policy.
Disappointingly for those on the left who wish to rupture with the EU, Sinn Finn has changed its
long-time opposition to the EU. Instead of highlighting the neo-liberal threat from Brussels it now takes the flawed ‘Remain and Reform’ position. With a 55% majority in the Six Counties in favour of remaining, Sinn Fein is making the
obvious case that London disregards the will of the Northern Irish. The party has also led a campaign that focuses on the possible, albeit greatly
exaggerated, difficulties posed by a hard border.
Meanwhile the British and
Irish governments are spinning their own self-serving tales around Brexit.
British Prime Minister
Johnson rejects the backstop option claiming this is because of his deep and
abiding affection for the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In
reality, this love affair is based firmly on Commons arithmetic. To stay in
office and fend off a general election, the Tory party has had to retain DUP
support. Nor is the Irish government completely frank either with its
statements about the impact of Britain leaving the European Union. Dublin has
focused greatly on the threat that this poses to the Good Friday Agreement in
general and to the maintenance of peace in particular.
Alarmist claims about a
return to the pre-1994 ‘Troubles’ are overdone. In spite of the recent death of
journalist Lyra McKee, there is little evidence of any real appetite for a
return to the widespread conflict of previous decades. If anything, the tragedy
illustrated the depth of opposition to armed groups. Moreover, it should also
be born in mind that Britain leaving the European Union will not, in itself,
alter the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the UK whether
there is a withdrawal deal or not.
Let’s not forget either
that both the British and Irish governments have stated categorically that they
will not create infrastructure along the border. Boris Johnson has repeated on
several occasions that the UK it will not impose tariffs on goods moving
northwards. This means that any checks that may arise from a no-deal Brexit
would be carried out in the Republic and there is every indication that these
will take place well away from the frontier. Incidentally, since the island was
partitioned almost a century ago there is no record of republicans ever
attacking a southern Irish customs post.
In a nutshell, the Brexit
debate in Ireland, North and South, has largely missed the essential elements
of the argument. Northern Ireland is one of the poorest regions of the United Kingdom.
Average income is 8.5% less than in Britain and average disposable income is
less than 40% of that in London and the economy is in ongoing decline as
evidenced by the difficulties faced by the once iconic Harland & Wolff
shipyard. The economic situation in the Republic appears to be infinitely
better. However, this disguises an increasingly unequal society with tens of
thousands homeless, a two-tier health service leaving the less well-off at a
major disadvantage and increasing number of workers in either low-paid or
precarious employment.
On both sides of the border
the answer to this lies in breaking with free-market capitalist economies,
whether controlled by neoliberals sitting in London or in charge of the
European Union. This in essence is the left wing case in relation to Brexit and
applies to Ireland as much as it does to Britain. Instead of working people
discussing the necessity of having democratic socialist control of the economy,
the powers that be have diverted attention towards a highly unlikely resumption
of armed conflict, export delays and possible traffic jams at border crossings.
Above all else, clarity and transparency around this issue are essential here in Ireland as well as in
Britain. The LeFT campaign is therefore not just timely but very necessary and is entitled to all the support we can give it.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Latest blog post from LeFT on Ireland.
Tommy McKearney – Brexit and the Future of Ireland
by Leave, Fight, Transform
A recent article in the Irish Times reported retired Irish diplomat Sean Ó hUigínn quoting Edmund
Burke’s remark that the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland, which is to hear no more about it. Undoubtedly, with the Brexit backstop causing turmoil in the House of Commons, senior members of the Conservative
party would very likely secretly share that view.
Many in Ireland might well suggest that had the English acted on Edmund Burke’s observation and left Ireland way back then, they might be experiencing fewer problems at the moment.
However, we can’t change the past and the Irish question has returned to torment Westminster.
Whatever about history, the Brexit debate does not follow the same line of argument in Northern Ireland, as it does in Britain. Local protagonists make different, although paradoxically
related, calculations when deciding their position on this issue. Moreover, London and Dublin are also playing the Ulster card, yet more often than not
they both conceal the entirety of their reasoning for doing so.
Underlying every political issue in Northern Ireland is the constitutional question of whether the area
should continue to be governed from London or have sovereignty transferred to Dublin. Magnifying the importance of this now are two crucial facts. In the first instance there is the perennial fixation on changing demographics, which are indicating the inevitability within the coming decades of a majority in favour of ending the union. This is compounded by the obvious failure of the
Six Counties to function as a normal political entity.
It is not that people in Northern Ireland are unaware or indifferent to Brexit. It is however the case, that for the most part, they see it as secondary. A contributory factor to this
outlook is the attitude of the British and Irish governments with the former speaking of the need to preserve the precious union and the latter raising alarm over a hard border. Unsurprisingly therefore, the two major local
political parties, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) and Sinn Fein have focussed on the constitutional impact of Brexit.
The DUP favours the hardest of withdrawal options in the hope that it will result in creating maximum
divergence between north and south and thereby reinforce the partition of Ireland. While this position wins favour in Unionist heartlands (and among the European Research Group), it has caused concern among some middle-class Unionist supporters who fear economic disruption. Nevertheless, the party’s greatest fear is losing its niche as the principal defender of ‘Protestant
Ulster’ and therefore feels obliged to persist with its policy.
Disappointingly for those on the left who wish to rupture with the EU, Sinn Finn has changed its
long-time opposition to the EU. Instead of highlighting the neo-liberal threat from Brussels it now takes the flawed ‘Remain and Reform’ position. With a 55% majority in the Six Counties in favour of remaining, Sinn Fein is making the
obvious case that London disregards the will of the Northern Irish. The party has also led a campaign that focuses on the possible, albeit greatly
exaggerated, difficulties posed by a hard border.
Meanwhile the British and
Irish governments are spinning their own self-serving tales around Brexit.
British Prime Minister
Johnson rejects the backstop option claiming this is because of his deep and
abiding affection for the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In
reality, this love affair is based firmly on Commons arithmetic. To stay in
office and fend off a general election, the Tory party has had to retain DUP
support. Nor is the Irish government completely frank either with its
statements about the impact of Britain leaving the European Union. Dublin has
focused greatly on the threat that this poses to the Good Friday Agreement in
general and to the maintenance of peace in particular.
Alarmist claims about a
return to the pre-1994 ‘Troubles’ are overdone. In spite of the recent death of
journalist Lyra McKee, there is little evidence of any real appetite for a
return to the widespread conflict of previous decades. If anything, the tragedy
illustrated the depth of opposition to armed groups. Moreover, it should also
be born in mind that Britain leaving the European Union will not, in itself,
alter the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the UK whether
there is a withdrawal deal or not.
Let’s not forget either
that both the British and Irish governments have stated categorically that they
will not create infrastructure along the border. Boris Johnson has repeated on
several occasions that the UK it will not impose tariffs on goods moving
northwards. This means that any checks that may arise from a no-deal Brexit
would be carried out in the Republic and there is every indication that these
will take place well away from the frontier. Incidentally, since the island was
partitioned almost a century ago there is no record of republicans ever
attacking a southern Irish customs post.
In a nutshell, the Brexit
debate in Ireland, North and South, has largely missed the essential elements
of the argument. Northern Ireland is one of the poorest regions of the United Kingdom.
Average income is 8.5% less than in Britain and average disposable income is
less than 40% of that in London and the economy is in ongoing decline as
evidenced by the difficulties faced by the once iconic Harland & Wolff
shipyard. The economic situation in the Republic appears to be infinitely
better. However, this disguises an increasingly unequal society with tens of
thousands homeless, a two-tier health service leaving the less well-off at a
major disadvantage and increasing number of workers in either low-paid or
precarious employment.
On both sides of the border
the answer to this lies in breaking with free-market capitalist economies,
whether controlled by neoliberals sitting in London or in charge of the
European Union. This in essence is the left wing case in relation to Brexit and
applies to Ireland as much as it does to Britain. Instead of working people
discussing the necessity of having democratic socialist control of the economy,
the powers that be have diverted attention towards a highly unlikely resumption
of armed conflict, export delays and possible traffic jams at border crossings.
Above all else, clarity and transparency around this issue are essential here in Ireland as well as in
Britain. The LeFT campaign is therefore not just timely but very necessary and is entitled to all the support we can give it.
So the article above says:
'focuses on the possible, albeit greatly
exaggerated, difficulties posed by a hard border.'
Well go on then LeFT. If you want brexit it should be easy to explain how your voted for border will actually work in practice.
I have said above that having watched the Left linked Swedish customs expert geezer at the select committee hearing, that what he suggests as a solution is some kind of glorified honesty box system based on trust from both sides.
It is no solution at all in my view, but if those of LeFT are confident it is a basis to overcome 'exaggerated difficulties', maybe they can tell everybody the detail.
Take all 30 days if you like, or even up to the 31st of October when your practical detailed solution will need to be implemented.
Should be easy for folk in LeFT, after all brexiters frequently say they knew what they were voting for.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Have you not read the proposed 'Alternative Arrangements', the 270+ page document complied by a range of experts, largely based on bringing together various different arrangements from across the globe?
The beauty of the proposals, is it pisses on your fire about using new unproven “high-tech” border technologies, because they have avoided including anything that isn't actually available in the here & now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What on earth are you denying?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
The article provides political context to the situation in Ireland. It’s makes clear the red herrings being used in respect of the border and infrastructure. It sets out the key issues facing the island.
The section you’ve highlighted makes the case that once free of the EU new possibilities open up in respect of the politics of all of Ireland.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Go on then, how will it work in practice, you seem to be able to understand it, can you explain it?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You've given him too much credit. He's not here for that.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Supine seems furious that the article points out the potential to travel away from neo-liberalism. Presumably he/she is equally furious with McDonnell, Sanders, Warren etc
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Why is the border a red herring?
Is 'leave' supposed to be the same as 'stay-joined' in some kind of doublethink way?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They are just an apolitical pro-eu idiot. There's nothing beyond that. And they're not on our side - so a list of people like that and the logic of their positions means nothing to them.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Read the article. Read the report. I’m not here to explain stuff to you. When you’ve read them post up your thoughts. That’s how this place works best
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ireland is still in the british empire because when it left it stayed as it still had a border. Right?
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Have you even read it, or at least the summary of it?
I assume you have, as the border issue seems to be your only purpose on this thread, so perhaps you can explain why it wouldn't/couldn't work?
Supine
Newt Member
Furious? LOL
Just strikes me that the left case for brexit involves making everything super shit so that capitism can be overthrown. If replacing capitalism is a better idea why not argue the case for the proposed new model (whatever it is) instead of helping turn things to shit.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He must have voted in full knowledge of it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
See?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Without a link I presume you are referring to this:
Commission - Prosperity UK
I rooted around in the lengthy report looking at what happens in the event of transgressions and couldn't find anything.
Maybe you can point me to the part that deals with what happens with regard to non compliance with the proposed alternative arrangements.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
So, basically you have no problem with the proposals, just what would happen in the event of transgressions?
Anyone with an IQ above that of a single celled organism, would assume very large fines, and trucks & their loads being impounded, much like what happens elsewhere.
Supine
Newt Member
Red herrings? It shows the author doesn't really understand the complexity of the island of Ireland.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
It's amazing how many people suddenly deeply care about, and have a comprehensive knowledge of, ireland
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
I am not totally convinced, but I am starting to think BJ may well have played a blinder here…
1 – Ignoring the EU after being promoted to PM, and instead starting his GE campaign based on ‘we are leaving with or without a deal at the end of October’, putting the shits up the EU.
2 – Ignoring the Eurocrats, and going straight to Germany, who let’s be honest runs the show anyway, then France as their lapdogs, and only other country that seriously has any sort of power in the EU. He’s blown a big hole in the ‘you can only negotiate with the EU, not individual countries’ bollocks policy.
3 – The Eurocrats refused to engage in discussions regarding alternatives arrangements to the Irish border issue, until we leave. Now both Merkel & Macron have indicated they are up for that conversation, that Tusk & co, refused to engage in. FFS, Macron has even said the ‘withdrawal agreement’ can be amended, who saw that coming?
4 – Following that, not only has the Irish government now said they are up for that conversation, but even Tusk has, no doubt dragged into this idea screaming & kicking, but hey ho, he’s now in ‘that place’, because those that actually pull the strings have put him there.
5 – the 270+ page 'Alternative Arrangements' report, a document complied by a range of experts, largely based on bringing together various arrangements from across the globe, was ignored by the Eurocrats, they wouldn’t even get involved in discussions concerning it, until we actually leave.
6 – Now Germany, France, Ireland & even Tusk, as leader of the Eurocrats, wants to discuss the proposals.
1 – Ignoring the EU after being promoted to PM, and instead starting his GE campaign based on ‘we are leaving with or without a deal at the end of October’, putting the shits up the EU.
2 – Ignoring the Eurocrats, and going straight to Germany, who let’s be honest runs the show anyway, then France as their lapdogs, and only other country that seriously has any sort of power in the EU. He’s blown a big hole in the ‘you can only negotiate with the EU, not individual countries’ bollocks policy.
3 – The Eurocrats refused to engage in discussions regarding alternatives arrangements to the Irish border issue, until we leave. Now both Merkel & Macron have indicated they are up for that conversation, that Tusk & co, refused to engage in. FFS, Macron has even said the ‘withdrawal agreement’ can be amended, who saw that coming?
4 – Following that, not only has the Irish government now said they are up for that conversation, but even Tusk has, no doubt dragged into this idea screaming & kicking, but hey ho, he’s now in ‘that place’, because those that actually pull the strings have put him there.
5 – the 270+ page 'Alternative Arrangements' report, a document complied by a range of experts, largely based on bringing together various arrangements from across the globe, was ignored by the Eurocrats, they wouldn’t even get involved in discussions concerning it, until we actually leave.
6 – Now Germany, France, Ireland & even Tusk, as leader of the Eurocrats, wants to discuss the proposals.
Supine
Newt Member
So you agree with the article and think potential problems are just red herrings?
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