Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[danny la rouge]

and paper, pens and so forth

That’s not even what I typed! Apple is auto-incorrecting me!!!

 

[Pickman's model]

That’s not even what I typed! Apple is auto-incorrecting me!!!

 

[philosophical]

your 980 posts on this thread

Ah I get it, the high and mighty stuff returns.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah I get it, the high and mighty stuff returns.

from what you're saying now, it appears you don't feel you've expressed your political views on this thread. why is that?

 

[belboid]

In terms of the mechanism I suppose I am attempting, unsuccessfully it seems, to keep the Irish Border at the forefront of discussion,?

very brave of you. Of course the border already is at the forefront of discussion even without your intervention, but well done anyway.

The problem with your attempt at putting it centre stage is presenting it as a fait accompli. Leaving the EU must, supposedly, mean screwing the GFA. Therefore we can't leave the EU, because the GFA is sacrosanct. It's an utterly anti-democratic argument - not to mention one that was never raised when the GFA was introduced - and is going to backfire on its proponents. Why should a piece of legislation that we never had a vote on stop us bringing through a piece of legislation that we did have a vote on? That isn't democracy.

Ohh, and my solution would be to reunite Ireland to get round the whole issue, before you start.

 

[philosophical]

from what you're saying now, it appears you don't feel you've expressed your political views on this thread. why is that?

Your interpretation is mistaken.
Have another try if you like, you often do.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sorry, late to this thread and my first post.
Am I right is assuming that everybody who voted brexit is an ignorant racist self serving nationalist brainwashed tosser?

On balance, I think that you are not right.

 

[philosophical]

very brave of you. Of course the border already is at the forefront of discussion even without your intervention, but well done anyway.

The problem with your attempt at putting it centre stage is presenting it as a fait accompli. Leaving the EU must, supposedly, mean screwing the GFA. Therefore we can't leave the EU, because the GFA is sacrosanct. It's an utterly anti-democratic argument - not to mention one that was never raised when the GFA was introduced - and is going to backfire on its proponents. Why should a piece of legislation that we never had a vote on stop us bringing through a piece of legislation that we did have a vote on? That isn't democracy.

Ohh, and my solution would be to reunite Ireland to get round the whole issue, before you start.

There was a vote on the GFA.
So how 'utterly' anti-democratic is that?
This might become a discussion on the degrees and nuances of what 'democracy' amounts to.
I believe you are right in saying that leaving the EU means screwing the GFA.

 

[belboid]

There was a vote on the GFA.
So how 'utterly' anti-democratic is that?

Only in NI, not the rest of the UK. So, not very democratic for most of the people who have now been affected by it. Pretty much the opposite, in fact.

Oh, and the GFA could also easily be maintained by leaving the EU but not the EEA. But the tories (and you it seems) dont want that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Your interpretation is mistaken.
Have another try if you like, you often do.

it isn't my interpretation but a simple statement of fact. you have posted nearly 1,000 times on a post about british - aye, and irish - politics. your posts in aggregate may not present your political views as you would articulate them if i asked you outright what you think: but they are at the least suggestive of your disdain for leave voters, your insistence that leave voters should come up with a plan to resolve your particular bugbear - the border in ireland, and your inability - as bad as any no deal brexiteer - to take other people's points of view on board. all these are hallmarks of poor politics, the contempt in which you hold the leave voters, your insistence they sort things out, your belief no one else is right... it's not a good look, philosophical

 

[philosophical]

Only in NI, not the rest of the UK. So, not very democratic for most of the people who have now been affected by it. Pretty much the opposite, in fact.

Oh, and the GFA could also easily be maintained by leaving the EU but not the EEA. But the tories (and you it seems) dont want that.

So it wasn't a piece of legislation we never had a vote on, it is about who the 'we' was.
You say 'only' in NI, so not democratic because circumstances have changed, yet I presume you might think it was democratic at the time.
That position can be the one adopted by Scotland who say their vote against independence is now invalid because circumstances have changed and they should go again (who could blame them?)
Interestingly if this is going to be about what constitutes 'democracy', sixteen year olds were allowed to vote in the independence ballot in Scotland, but not the brexit ballot in Britain, so there is a case to be made that the British brexit vote was not very democratic for people who have been (or will be) affected by it. Pretty much the opposite in fact?
If the GFA can easily be maintained by having two divergent systems side by side would you care to say how?

 

[danny la rouge]

Do you reckon there are people out there who have a feasible, workable plan for how to deal with the border issue that would get through parliament and also give leave voters what they want? Just that they can't get anyone to look at their plan and pass it on to those in power?

In addressing the question to the wrong person, you miss the point, which is that philosophical is saying that it is up to Leave voters to solve the problem. Let’s accept that’s correct (it isn’t, but let’s accept it is in order to move on), how is that to take place? Leave aside the uniqueness of the suggestion within the terms of our system. But given that he keeps on saying that this is what must happen, it’s not unreasonable to enquire how.

For what it’s worth, I’d opt for a reunited Ireland. If I was the Westminster government, I’d say to the Unionists “we have decided there are two choices: the sort of border you don’t want, or no border, because you’re joining the Republic. You choose”.

That would appear to be the honest position of Johnson. He should just say it.

 

[philosophical]

it isn't my interpretation but a simple statement of fact. you have posted nearly 1,000 times on a post about british - aye, and irish - politics. your posts in aggregate may not present your political views as you would articulate them if i asked you outright what you think: but they are at the least suggestive of your disdain for leave voters, your insistence that leave voters should come up with a plan to resolve your particular bugbear - the border in ireland, and your inability - as bad as any no deal brexiteer - to take other people's points of view on board. all these are hallmarks of poor politics, the contempt in which you hold the leave voters, your insistence they sort things out, your belief no one else is right... it's not a good look, philosophical

You have written a more extensive piece than usual.
Do you notice that what you wrap up as my broad political views is seen through the lens of my attitude to one single issue?
I am able to take other views on board when they are put forward for discussion and response quite easily, on brexit and believe it or not on other political issues.
You are right that I hold the leave voters in contempt, and probably right that to many it is not a good look.
However I am ready to accept that plenty of other people are right about plenty of things, even when I would differ with them personally and choose a different path for myself.
You have taken the trouble to glance at what I write, and analyse to the extent that you feel you can declare what my politics are. I can assure you you needn't bother to do such stuff, for my part I can only guess at why you bother. Has it not occurred to you that I am merely one poster on one forum, and you will be exhausted analysing everybody?

 

[belboid]

So it wasn't a piece of legislation we never had a vote on, it is about who the 'we' was.

Quite, we, those voting the the EU referendum, never had a vote on the GFA. The GFA which is now being held over us as sacrosanct. A blatant lack of democracy.

You say 'only' in NI, so not democratic because circumstances have changed, yet I presume you might think it was democratic at the time.

I dont think any of those things.

That position can be the one adopted by Scotland who say their vote against independence is now invalid because circumstances have changed and they should go again (who could blame them?)

It is absolutely nothing to do with 'validity,' it is to do with a changed situation. Of course they should be allowed a vote. Your point is irrelevant.

Interestingly if this is going to be about what constitutes 'democracy', sixteen year olds were allowed to vote in the independence ballot in Scotland, but not the brexit ballot in Britain, so there is a case to be made that the British brexit vote was not very democratic for people who have been (or will be) affected by it. Pretty much the opposite in fact?

Not at all. Pisspoor attempt at undermining the biggest vote in British history (whether you like the outcome or not). If there is demand for another vote, by all means have one. That's how it works.

If the GFA can easily be maintained by having two divergent systems side by side would you care to say how?

I did. I also gave my preferred option.

 

[philosophical]

In addressing the question to the wrong person, you miss the point, which is that philosophical is saying that it is up to Leave voters to solve the problem. Let’s accept that’s correct (it isn’t, but let’s accept it is in order to move on), how is that to take place? Leave aside the uniqueness of the suggestion within the terms of our system. But given that he keeps on saying that this is what must happen, it’s not unreasonable to enquire how.

For what it’s worth, I’d opt for a reunited Ireland. If I was the Westminster government, I’d say to the Unionists “we have decided there are two choices: the sort of border you don’t want, or no border, because you’re joining the Republic. You choose”.

That would appear to be the honest position of Johnson. He should just say it.

If I am to be taken to task by asking generally how leavers plan to manage the Irish border, are you not asking me something similar by asking me how leavers are to solve the problem?
My answer would be along the lines of it isn't my problem I didn't vote for it.
Sooner or later there will be two divergent systems side by side that were not so divergent before. I believe brexit voters call it taking back control.
Something will need to happen there at some time in the future, and I believe that for whatever leave is supposed to mean, it will be a something that conflicts with what Boris Johnson would call the letter and the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.
At that point it becomes more of my problem because I have family in the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Pickman's model]

You have written a more extensive piece than usual.
Do you notice that what you wrap up as my broad political views is seen through the lens of my attitude to one single issue?
I am able to take other views on board when they are put forward for discussion and response quite easily, on brexit and believe it or not on other political issues.
You are right that I hold the leave voters in contempt, and probably right that to many it is not a good look.
However I am ready to accept that plenty of other people are right about plenty of things, even when I would differ with them personally and choose a different path for myself.
You have taken the trouble to glance at what I write, and analyse to the extent that you feel you can declare what my politics are. I can assure you you needn't bother to do such stuff, for my part I can only guess at why you bother. Has it not occurred to you that I am merely one poster on one forum, and you will be exhausted analysing everybody?

yes

 

[danny la rouge]

If I am to be taken to task by asking generally how leavers plan to manage the Irish border, are you not asking me something similar by asking me how leavers are to solve the problem?

No. I literally just want to know about the mechanics of this novel approach to British politics: that those who voted for the winning side must provide the solution to any problems thrown up.

If you don’t accept that the section I have italicised is a reasonable précis of your point, please say in what way.

 

[belboid]

My answer would be along the lines of it isn't my problem I didn't vote for it.

I didn’t vote for capitalism, so should I leave it to capitalists to sort out their mess? I don’t think that’s likely to work.

If you want the vote overturned just campaign/argue for that. Don’t just try to make clever points, that aren’t very clever, about why it’s impossible. Or you’ll end up with the worst outcome, which is simply the gfa being fucked over.

 

[philosophical]

Quite, we, those voting the the EU referendum, never had a vote on the GFA. The GFA which is now being held over us as sacrosanct. A blatant lack of democracy.


I dont think any of those things.

It is absolutely nothing to do with 'validity,' it is to do with a changed situation. Of course they should be allowed a vote. Your point is irrelevant.

Not at all. Pisspoor attempt at undermining the biggest vote in British history (whether you like the outcome or not). If there is demand for another vote, by all means have one. That's how it works.

I did. I also gave my preferred option.

I am sure there are differences between the EEA system and the EU system, and there needs to be some kind of meshing or accommodation between the two. As far as I can see the two systems are sympathetic to each other but are still different from each other.
I looked at this:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-EEA-and-EU

And it quickly becomes complex in trying to figure out it's practical applications in the situation you suggest.

If you are saying there is no difference at all I find it curious, but if you are saying there are no differences at all that would impact the GFA in any way whatsoever I would find it hopeful.
However it remains that the vote was to leave the EU, not to join the EEA or anything else, and that is where the country now stands. Boris Johnson is not waddling around saying lets be part of the EEA only, he waddles around going on about leaving completely in every way, and he says he is mandated because the vote was simply to leave.

 

[butchersapron]

Quora

 

[Steel Icarus]

Lol

 

[philosophical]

No. I literally just want to know about the mechanics of this novel approach to British politics: that those who voted for the winning side must provide the solution to any problems thrown up.

If you don’t accept that the section I have italicised is a reasonable précis of your point, please say in what way.

Because I have been more specific.
I have not asked for solutions to any problems thrown up, but for what I believe to be the most central practical problem.

I may not be the only one who sees it as the most central practical problem given the amount of time loads of other people here and elsewhere have devoted to the Irish aspect of the whole debate.

 

[danny la rouge]

Because I have been more specific.
I have not asked for solutions to any problems thrown up, but for what I believe to be the most central practical problem.

I may not be the only one who sees it as the most central practical problem given the amount of time loads of other people here and elsewhere have devoted to the Irish aspect of the whole debate.

OK, you only mean the NI border issue.

Assume I’m accepting that this is a perfectly reasonable innovation to the unwritten constitution of the UK. That there’s a perfectly good argument for this issue and no other being resolved by the people who voted Leave.

Interesting proposal, philosophical. How do you see that being put into practise?

How do we identify the correct voters?

How do we collect their contributions?

How do we reach a consensus on the outcome of the consultation?

How do we convince the government to accept the outcome?

How do we convince parliament to vote to approve it?

In short, would you accept that it isn’t a solution at all, but yet another problem?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I believe those who voted leave are totally responsible for sorting the consequences of their actions.
It certainly isn't down to those who voted remain.
If you believe that means I don't get 'politics' you're wrong if that is a question and also wrong if that is a statement.
My views are no less and no more valid than yours.

Ok but only if you sort out the stability & growth pact, the turkish camps and Hungary first

 

[danny la rouge]

And for what it’s worth: I approve of direct democracy, and have over the years described how I’d like to see it working. But I don’t think I can get it up and running by 31st October. Not without some help.

 

[andysays]

Away from the heady theoretical debate about how Leave voters should be forced to come up with an acceptable solution to the Irish border question, there appears to be an actual legal case going on

Brexit: Legal bid to stop Westminster shutdown goes to court

A legal challenge to try to prevent Boris Johnson shutting down parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit has begun in a Scottish court. A group of MPs and peers wants the Court of Session in Edinburgh to rule that suspending parliament to make the UK leave the EU without a deal is "unlawful and unconstitutional".

Among other questions, I'm wondering why this case, which is about the UK parliament in Westminster, is being brought in Edinburgh rather than London

 

[philosophical]

OK, you only mean the NI border issue.

Assume I’m accepting that this is a perfectly reasonable innovation to the unwritten constitution of the UK. That there’s a perfectly good argument for this issue and no other being resolved by the people who voted Leave.

Interesting proposal, philosophical. How do you see that being put into practise?

How do we identify the correct voters?

How do we collect their contributions?

How do we reach a consensus on the outcome of the consultation?

How do we convince the government to accept the outcome?

How do we convince parliament to vote to approve it?

In short, would you accept that it isn’t a solution at all, but yet another problem?

Of course I accept it is another problem.

 

[Supine]

Among other questions, I'm wondering why this case, which is about the UK parliament in Westminster, is being brought in Edinburgh rather than London

Because it's open for business and not on holiday

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm wondering why this case, which is about the UK parliament in Westminster, is being brought in Edinburgh rather than London

From reading the piece, it would seem that it’s simply that the London courts are on holiday but the Scots ones aren’t.

I have no way of knowing if that’s the real reason.

 

[danny la rouge]

Of course I accept it is another problem.

Am I right in reading that to mean that it was not your intention to present the proposal as a solution?