Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[SpackleFrog]

I don't think that's true. Whether or not people wanted a referendum factored into who they voted for, in the election that produced a government which initiated one.

I voted TUSC in 2015. The referendum was not a factor in how I voted.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Do people who 'oppose capitalism' but still decide to live within mainstream society have an incoherent position?

Oh fuck off.

 

[SpackleFrog]

So Trump had explicitly stated that the NHS is on the table in trade talks with the USA.

Is privatisation of healthcare and an insurance based model leavers are willing to accept as a price worth paying? I certainly wouldn't be happy about it

No, of course not. That wasn't on the ballot was it?

Although the NHS *is* being privatised and has been since before the referendum.

 

[SpackleFrog]

so you can tell them once but not twice of your disdain for the eu?

Sure you can but who would believe you?

 

[MickiQ]

I suspect Donny doesn't really know what the NHS is, he certainly doesn't seem to know what he said more than about 2 minutes ago.
Assuming we crash out No Deal then everything including the NHS is going to be on the table for negotiations, whether or not we give any of it away depends on whoever is doing the negotiation for the UK and what their priorities are. A Labour government would certainly have different priorities than a Tory one.
If we leave with a Deal then no-one is going to really bother negotiating a deal with us until they know what sort of agreement we are going to come to with the EU since there will be knock on effects on any further negotiations.
That said whilst Donny is an idiot there are clearly people around him who can sniff the chance to make money out of the NHS (which is a big market) post-Brexit and will be lobbying US negotiators to try and get it opened up.
To what extent they do or do not succeed is a bit difficult to predict in the current chaos.

 

[teuchter]

Oh fuck off.

What's the problem with that question?

 

[SpackleFrog]

What's the problem with that question?

The problem with the question "well are you really against capitalism if you live in a capitalist society"? Really?

You are Louise Mensch and I claim my £5

 

[SpackleFrog]

I suspect Donny doesn't really know what the NHS is, he certainly doesn't seem to know what he said more than about 2 minutes ago.
Assuming we crash out No Deal then everything including the NHS is going to be on the table for negotiations, whether or not we give any of it away depends on whoever is doing the negotiation for the UK and what their priorities are. A Labour government would certainly have different priorities than a Tory one.
If we leave with a Deal then no-one is going to really bother negotiating a deal with us until they know what sort of agreement we are going to come to with the EU since there will be knock on effects on any further negotiations.
That said whilst Donny is an idiot there are clearly people around him who can sniff the chance to make money out of the NHS (which is a big market) post-Brexit and will be lobbying US negotiators to try and get it opened up.
To what extent they do or do not succeed is a bit difficult to predict in the current chaos.

Exactly - the NHS will be safer under a Corbyn led govt, just as it was before the referendum.

 

[Supine]

No, of course not. That wasn't on the ballot was it

Being on the ballet is irrelevant. It's an obvious consequence of deciding to do independant trade deals. The US are not our friends when it comes to money. Nor are any other nations.

 

[teuchter]

The problem with the question "well are you really against capitalism if you live in a capitalist society"? Really?

Yes, that is the question. What is the answer?

Everyone has the option of living in a forest somewhere and refusing to engage with any capitalist transactions. They'll probably have a fairly miserable life and die young but given the choice between that, and engaging with a system they don't support but which offers them a better quality of life, if they are serious, they won't go for the 'least bad' option because that would be incoherent, and childish politics, right?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Being on the ballet is irrelevant. It's an obvious consequence of deciding to do independant trade deals. The US are not our friends when it comes to money. Nor are any other nations.

Independent trade deals wasn't on the ballot either. Its "obvious" to you because you decided a long time ago that the only possible future outside of the EU was one in which Britain became an imperial subject of the US. For you, There Is No Alternative.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes, that is the question. What is the answer?

Everyone has the option of living in a forest somewhere and refusing to engage with any capitalist transactions. They'll probably have a fairly miserable life and die young but given the choice between that, and engaging with a system they don't support but which offers them a better quality of life, if they are serious, they won't go for the 'least bad' option because that would be incoherent, and childish politics, right?

I don't know why I'm still playing along because for me that's a ridiculous way of understanding society. But what I would say to you is that your position is going beyond simply existing within capitalism and actively telling people that capitalism is the only possible system and that all possible alternatives are worse.

 

[Supine]

Independent trade deals wasn't on the ballot either. Its "obvious" to you because you decided a long time ago that the only possible future outside of the EU was one in which Britain became an imperial subject of the US. For you, There Is No Alternative.

Yes they were. The whole independant trade deals thing was a key selling point for the leave camp. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about trade knew it was bullshit because deals within a big trading block like we currently have with EU would always be more favourable. You really don't understand any of this do you!

 

[planetgeli]

He's withdrawn that statement.

Donald Trump U-turns on saying NHS is 'on the table' in a Brexit trade deal

I believe him. And all that stuff about the bestest ever relationship in the world. And unicorns. Unicorns are real too.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes they were. The whole independant trade deals thing was a key selling point for the leave camp. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about trade knew it was bullshit because deals within a big trading block like we currently have with EU would always be more favourable. You really don't understand any of this do you!

I campaigned independently from all that on an entirely different basis. I spoke to remain voters and leave voters and undecideds and no one talked about trade deals.

You're the one who doesn't understand because you don't have any politics or perspectives independent of the bourgeois politicians.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes they were. The whole independant trade deals thing was a key selling point for the leave camp. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about trade knew it was bullshit because deals within a big trading block like we currently have with EU would always be more favourable. You really don't understand any of this do you!

No they weren't. Just as immigration wasn't on the ballot paper. There are many ways not to be in the EU, and no one single alternative was on the ballot paper. That's a big part of the problem here - some kind of Norway+, such as 'Common Market 2', is fully in line with 'honouring the referendum'. And it could have been sold right from the start as such - We will follow the referendum, but nearly half of the country wants to stay, and of those who want to leave, there will be a range of opinion about what that means: this is a sensible compromise position, loosening ties but not cutting them. But no, it was 'brexit means brexit' and 'a red white and blue brexit' and 'honouring the referendum means ending free movement' and 'citizen of nowhere' anti-immigrant shit, with this rubbish about trade deals tagged on as an afterthought. I very much doubt many people voting leave gave a shit either way about international trade deals.

 

[teuchter]

I don't know why I'm still playing along because for me that's a ridiculous way of understanding society. But what I would say to you is that your position is going beyond simply existing within capitalism and actively telling people that capitalism is the only possible system and that all possible alternatives are worse.

I'm not trying to tell anyone anything about capitalism or the alternatives. I'm saying, for now we exist in a capitalist system, and the consequences of someone withdrawing from it suddenly and entirely would likely leave them worse off. Therefore it's entirely reasonable for them to remain living within that system whilst looking for and promoting alternatives. The same applies to deciding that we are best off staying in the EU for now, whilst simultaneously being opposed the the EU. I don't think that's incoherent, you said that it was.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'm not trying to tell anyone anything about capitalism or the alternatives. I'm saying, for now we exist in a capitalist system, and the consequences of someone withdrawing from it suddenly and entirely would likely leave them worse off. Therefore it's entirely reasonable for them to remain living within that system whilst looking for and promoting alternatives. The same applies to deciding that we are best off staying in the EU for now, whilst simultaneously being opposed the the EU. I don't think that's incoherent, you said that it was.

If we take that as logical (and assuming you are opposed to the EU but think we're best of staying in the EU for now) at what point and under what conditions would you feel it was best to leave the EU?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I do recall the likes of Hannann talking about potential trade deals, but also the assumption behind leave pre ref was of some sort of deal with EU. Nobody talked about WTO rules.

 

[teuchter]

If we take that as logical (and assuming you are opposed to the EU but think we're best of staying in the EU for now) at what point and under what conditions would you feel it was best to leave the EU?

The point at which someone can provide me with a clear and plausible outline of a plan to leave that puts the people of the UK in a better position than they are in now, with a focus on the portion of the population who are currently worst off in terms of financial, health and housing security. That was not available at the referendum, and it is not available now.

 

[andysays]

Yes, that is the question. What is the answer?

Everyone has the option of living in a forest somewhere and refusing to engage with any capitalist transactions. They'll probably have a fairly miserable life and die young but given the choice between that, and engaging with a system they don't support but which offers them a better quality of life, if they are serious, they won't go for the 'least bad' option because that would be incoherent, and childish politics, right?

Sometimes, I wish you would go and live in a forest somewhere and refuse to engage with any external transactions, capitalist or otherwise.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The point at which someone can provide me with a clear and plausible outline of a plan to leave that puts the people of the UK in a better position than they are in now, with a focus on the portion of the population who are currently worst off in terms of financial, health and housing security. That was not available at the referendum, and it is not available now.

In other words you want to stay in the EU forever.

 

[Pickman's model]

In other words you want to stay in the EU forever.

((((EU))))

 

[sleaterkinney]

I do recall the likes of Hannann talking about potential trade deals, but also the assumption behind leave pre ref was of some sort of deal with EU. Nobody talked about WTO rules.

Exactly, it was all have your cake and eat it, same nonsense as they are coming out with now, Labour included.

 

[not-bono-ever]

there was clearly much talk of a fantastic new world of trade deals coming from the likes of Johnson pre vote. I do not however recall WTO popping as as it was something that was kinda below the mighty U.K.- a preserve of foreign Johnny places with no influence

 

[teuchter]

In other words you want to stay in the EU forever.

You're not optimistic then.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You're not optimistic then.

I pride myself on seeing reasons for optimism, it's important when there aren't many. That's not the point. The point is you will never leave an organisation like the EU or the IMF or the World Bank in an 'orderly' fashion. It's not in the interests of these organisations to allow any state to leave without economic pain. So by insisting that leaving is only desirable on the basis of an orderly, smooth, predictable basis you're insisting that leaving is never desirable.

What would you say to Greece? "Of course, we should leave, but not until we can do so smoothly."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I pride myself on seeing reasons for optimism, it's important when there aren't many. That's not the point. The point is you will never leave an organisation like the EU or the IMF or the World Bank in an 'orderly' fashion. It's not in the interests of these organisations to allow any state to leave without economic pain. So by insisting that leaving is only desirable on the basis of an orderly, smooth, predictable basis you're insisting that leaving is never desirable.

What would you say to Greece? "Of course, we should leave, but not until we can do so smoothly."

My response when Greece is brought up is a relatively simple one: How does Brexit help Greece? I've yet to hear any kind of answer. While I totally agree with you that trade deals were irrelevant in the referendum, one of the big things that I think did carry resonance was the figure for the UK's net contribution. One of the countries that is a net recipient is Greece. (And yes, of course there are problems with the way EU money is spent and the way companies from rich countries benefit from it, but like trade deals, this kind of nicety wasn't part of the anti-EU discourse. It actually runs counter to the simple and simplistic anti-EU narrative as British companies also benefit from EU investment.)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

there was clearly much talk of a fantastic new world of trade deals coming from the likes of Johnson pre vote. I do not however recall WTO popping as as it was something that was kinda below the mighty U.K.- a preserve of foreign Johnny places with no influence

WTO rules exist as a backstop for countries that haven't negotiated trade deals that are more favourable. They lack a strong authority to enforce them and favour the strong over the weak as a result, which is why countries tend to try to get away from them.

 

[teuchter]

I pride myself on seeing reasons for optimism, it's important when there aren't many. That's not the point. The point is you will never leave an organisation like the EU or the IMF or the World Bank in an 'orderly' fashion. It's not in the interests of these organisations to allow any state to leave without economic pain. So by insisting that leaving is only desirable on the basis of an orderly, smooth, predictable basis you're insisting that leaving is never desirable.

What would you say to Greece? "Of course, we should leave, but not until we can do so smoothly."

I didn't insist that it be orderly or smooth.

Predictable? I don't see the point in engaging in a process the outcome of which is not predictable. Doesn't mean it has to have 100% certainty of outcome, but there should at least be a plausible route to the desired result.