sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Are you seriously saying that parties honour their manifestos?
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
Come now. I only take 5%.From counting your salary, no doubt
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
hmmm - I wonder if there are any , obscure, minor geographical factors that mean membership of the EU is not as vital an issue to the likes of india and japan as opposed to the UK?
And larger GDP does not necessarily mean less poverty or less inequality. but a shrunken GDP does tend to very mean the opposite. GDP is the size of the economic cake but does not dictate how it is cut - and excludes many other factors.
But If you measure GDP per capita the top countries are luxemburg, switzerland and norway whilst the lowest are Central African Republic, Burundi and the Democratic Republic of the Congo - so there clearly is a relation between it and quality of life overall.
China has a massive GDP compared to the UK cos its population is something like 15 times greater. its per capita GDP is 73rd compared to the UK's 26th. If its gross GDP dropped to the uk's level it would mean abject poverty and starvation.
but yeah - its a crude measure - ireland's per capita GDP is 5th - which doesn't square with general levels of affluence. Unless it all Bono's piles of loot distorting the figures.
What’s that got to do with whether or not Japan is “crushed” by not being in the EU? The claim is that a country of the UK’s kind of GDP size will be “crushed”, remember? And it’s obviously nonsense.
I’m not talking about the reasons GDP (even per capita) is a shit measure of national wellbeing yet again, having already done so multiple times already in this thread alone. But it is a shit measure of national wellbeing.
newbie
undisambiguated
I'm saying that people who vote for a party are liable to be angry if manifesto commitments are wrecked by MPs who argued for that manifesto on the doorstep.
Incidentally:
Two out of three of which are not in the EU, of course, despite their “geographical factors”. And yet they have not been “crushed”,
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
but they are still in the customs union - why they are not full members isn't really clear, cos being outside the bloc doesn't seem to give them any advantages. you'd have to ask them.
The "crushed" thing is - i guess - coming from the uk having left with no deal and having to try and come to a deal with the EU from a very weak position - not the situation for china and japan - who already have trade deals with the EU and who do not rely on EU trade to anything like the same extent and have a far, far bigger manufacturing base.
And i already said GDP is a crude measure - but it doesn't tell as nothing - countries with high levels of affluence and low inequality have high GDP per capita - and countries with low GDP per capita have high levels of widespread poverty.
The weakness of the whole lexit argument for me is that it seems to assume that leaving the EU is somehow distances the UK from the system of globalised capitalism - but if anything its the reverse - unless you are arguing to leave the (even more neo-liberal) WTO and IMF an go down the north Korea route.
The "crushed" thing is - i guess - coming from the uk having left with no deal and having to try and come to a deal with the EU from a very weak position - not the situation for china and japan - who already have trade deals with the EU and who do not rely on EU trade to anything like the same extent and have a far, far bigger manufacturing base.
And i already said GDP is a crude measure - but it doesn't tell as nothing - countries with high levels of affluence and low inequality have high GDP per capita - and countries with low GDP per capita have high levels of widespread poverty.
The weakness of the whole lexit argument for me is that it seems to assume that leaving the EU is somehow distances the UK from the system of globalised capitalism - but if anything its the reverse - unless you are arguing to leave the (even more neo-liberal) WTO and IMF an go down the north Korea route.
Who says we are leaving with no deal? Why shouldn’t the U.K. be in the customs union? You’re reading what you want to read and interpreting accordingly. If the U.K. follows Corbyn’s plan, for example, it will be in the same situation as Norway and Switzerland. I.e. not “crushed”.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
i was assuming a no deal scenario where the "the uk will be crushed by the EU" thing came from.
Customs Union is not in the same ball park - just completely pointless, worst of both worlds etc.
The tweet doesn’t say anything except that the U.K. is “about to be crushed”
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Didn't it? Well somewhat hyperbolic then - but still a far more accurate assessment than that given by johnsons and the moggladytes.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Any country with the likes of theresa may in charge can be considered crush-ready
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Parties regularly don't do stuff that's in their manifesto.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
thankfully
Cid
Proper break this time
Have you... Have you thought how that might read given a millennial use of the word 'crush'?
newbie
undisambiguated
and their voters get cross about their failure.
What makes Brexit different is that implementation was promised before and during the referendum (if Leave won) and at the subsequent GE when both major parties had a manifesto pledge to implement it. Yet it has not been delivered. Politicians have thwarted the people. Is that not a cause for irritation?
rubbershoes
not the only raver in the village
It can disingenuous for parties to justify their actions by saying they were in the manifesto.
Voters don't agree with everything in a manifesto
collectordave
Active Member
I actually think that anything said or written by me will have as much effect as winking at a girl in a dark room. In fact your reply was quite a surprise!
Definitely not running around, when running you miss so much, I just recognise that my opinion is based on emotion and as such I blow the dust off and take it for a leisurely stroll quite often, just to be sure the emotion used to form my opinion is not solely based on others opinions no matter how loud they shout or how many are shouting.
I am also not trying to pretend anything just providing a view from a different perspective for consideration.
This does still leave my question:-
Waiting for an answer.
Please feel free to ignore the second\third referendum reference if you so wish.
collectordave
Active Member
No.
I am providing just another perspective and not questioning the legitimacy of either referendum or the GE.
This mainly because I feel that if I reject any line of reasoning that does not fully agree with my opinion by giving it a name or simply dismissing it as a rant then the state of my mind is pitiable not the reasoning.
As it is just another perspective it is not a line of argument. Arguments are such wasteful things seeming, in my opinion, to prove only that two people with different opinions who are incapable of compromise have met.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Are you that other pricks brother, the brother whose supposed to be 'living in Ireland'?
collectordave
Active Member
Quite true.
The first was a vote on a trading bloc that was going to grow into the EU the second was a vote on the same trading bloc after 40 years of British influence.
I believe the British influence on the EU to be of an inestimable value for good and would like to keep Britain's influence on the EU active and not retreat from attempting to improve it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How can hmg's influence on the eu be an inestimable good when so much of what it does at home is bloody awful?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What is this guff. If you make a claim then you are making an argument.
The nonsense you posted about the 75 referendum is just that, nonsense. That was a referendum over 40 years ago. The idea that because the 2016 referendum gave the opposite result we need a third referendum to decide is pitiable.
Its an example of the regressive nonsense that die-hard Remainers are willing to pull out of anywhere in order to object to leaving the UK. No consideration of the consequences of such a position, no analysis of the politics. Just 'oh look opposition to leaving, this will do'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Could you outline the results of that influence please?
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Bit of "street angel house devil" going on. Nothing new in that surely?
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
British influence in Brussels had been far greater than recognised
Unfortunate that the first example given in this article is Thatcherite reference
.... but an interesting read if you can possibly move on from that paragraph.
Unfortunate that the first example given in this article is Thatcherite reference
.... but an interesting read if you can possibly move on from that paragraph.collectordave
Active Member
After reading your profound question two answers present themselves.
1. No
2. I do not know which prick you are talking about so maybe you can enlighten everybody from your own experience what it is like to be a prick?
So take your pick
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
The promises made could never have been kept. Blue and Red unicorns the lot, and we don't seem to be having this brought out yet. So yes, they should be irritated for being mislead.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Unfortunate? Is this some sort of joke? Are you suggesting that we overlook the main and most influential thing the UK has done - the thing that has and will most effect how it operates - when we evaluate the influence the UK has had on the EU and the argument that its influence is a definite good?
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