Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[FridgeMagnet]

A question for the Remainers, particularly anyone who attended the march yesterday.

Getting a million out onto the streets is impressive. What should be done with all those people now? What's the next step?

I don’t think there is anyone who can actually “do” anything with the people involved. There are already various groups trying to do something with the fact that a shitload of people were there, claiming they were all (for instance) People’s Vote supporters - but I know people who went along who were against PV. Similarly there were no borders types marching which is definitely not the general position of public remainer factions. I’ve seen comments generally saying that many marchers felt alienated by what structure there was, the speakers particularly.

There is as much or even more push to stereotype people opposed to Brexit by interested parties as people who support it and while that might pass in the press it won’t translate into organised action involving those people more detailed than “go on a march because you’re massively frustrated about one specific thing”. You can also see this on the pro Brexit side - demos there have had a clear ideological side beyond just wanting Brexit, and have been poorly attended because most leave voters are not racist loons.

 

[Pickman's model]

...but, to repeat my question to Remainers, a million is a pretty powerful number of people willing to march. What should they do next?

Go home and prepare for brexit

 

[Pickman's model]

Personally, I think A50 is going to be revoked anyway...but not because of the protest (or petition).

Both provide useful cover for doing so though.

Yeh it'll be revoked when they peer into the no deal abyss and cannot see the bottom

 

[Badgers]

...but, to repeat my question to Remainers, a million is a pretty powerful number of people willing to march. What should they do next?

Food stockpiling

 

[The39thStep]

To reform the EU?

Never hear any of that these days

 

[butchersapron]

WE LUV EU

 

[butchersapron]

Never hear any of that these days

The first step would be to have a look at how the EU works. I don't know how any one could look at that and go well that's up for change, democratic change.

 

[gosub]

Never hear any of that these days

Its on the agenda right after they have finished with Brexit...and reform in a way that is antihesis to how UK would reform.

 

[Wilf]

They have nothing to offer leavers so all that is left is power moves, top down moves to stop it. They literally can offer nothing in the long term - the daft parts of leave can pulled apart from the things like defence of the welfare state. That's a real political project. Remain has - stay like this. Scary dangerous. Some people have no idea.

It certainly could have been/maybe even still could be. But first of all 2.5 years on Corbyn hasn't managed to do this, and more importantly the wider left hasn't. That's why the battle between remain and leave is stuck on either the wrong version of what should be being debated or entirely meaningless stuff - choosing between versions of UK and global capital, 'sovereignty', nationalism etc.

 

[butchersapron]

It certainly could have been/maybe even could be. But first of all 2.5 years on Corbyn hasn't managed to do this, and more importantly the wider left hasn't. That's why the battle between remain and leave is stuck on either the wrong version of what should be being debated or entirely meaningless stuff - choosing between versions of UK and global capital, 'sovereignty', nationalism etc.

I agree 100%. But i think there is also a potential ground with a GE win. That's at least as possible as anything else. It's one of the three strong options.

There is/was so much space to take if the work was put in. Each time we asked we were told it'd been put in. Here's a million man march clapping fucking tories

 

[butchersapron]

The work has been put into winning internal battles - whilst single mothers being evicted by the labour party.

 

[andysays]

Its on the agenda right after they have finished with Brexit...and reform in a way that is antihesis to how UK would reform.

Could you be a bit more specific? Whose agenda is it on and what reforms are they seeking?

 

[chilango]

Seems to me that Remain's main hope us that the establishment (or at least the majority faction that oppose Brexit) pulls the plug. As butchersapron says a top down power move.

Which could happen regardless of any remain protests. Cos, y"know it's the establishment acting to preserve the status quo in its own interests.

So...the petition and the march and all the exhortations? A waste of time and effort?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Seems to me that Remain's main hope us that the establishment (or at least the majority faction that oppose Brexit) pulls the plug. As butchersapron says a top down power move.

Which could happen regardless of any remain protests. Cos, y"know it's the establishment acting to preserve the status quo in its own interests.

So...the petition and the march and all the exhortations? A waste of time and effort?

Well, they've certainly provided political cover to the establishment if they do pull the plug...

 

[SpackleFrog]

The work has been put into winning internal battles - whilst single mothers being evicted by the labour party.

Not even that. If there is a snap GE there will be no time for re-selection. Which, we were told, wasn't necessary. So any Corbyn govt will be about as divided as May's has been.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

I have no idea which thread to put this on now and realise it will be of minor interest - but i've gone with this one as it seems the one with the more lefty/etc posters on it, but why were LMHR/SUTR both marching in support of the call to revoke/re-vote yesterday when their controlling parent body - the SWP - called v. loudly and v. publicly for a leave vote?

They were at the “school strike” climate protest the other Friday in Westminster, a bunch of guys in their 50s/60s trying to sell papers to 14 year olds with no money. They only have one tactic.

 

[gosub]

Could you be a bit more specific? Whose agenda is it on and what reforms are they seeking?

Introduction | Spinelli Group

 

[T & P]

The Remain demo and the petition are not any more or less of a power move, and certainly any more objectionable than countless other protests, from Poll Tax to disability benefits cuts. Protesters feel strongly about an issue they think is wrong, unjust and which will be think it will be highly damaging to a lot of us. How very dare they.

It might have zero effect on the eventual outcome but does anyone here actually have a problem with people expressing their feelings about it? Is it any more futile or mockable than campaigners protesting against library closures or council service cuts, which in the great majority of cases achieve sweet FA?

 

[redsquirrel]

Are you going to apply that same logic to the Brexit March?

And there's plenty that's objectionable about this march - Heseltine, Kendell, Umunna, LibDem shits, the pro-EU crap. That's not saying that everyone who marched is a wanker but the politics of this march are far shitter than those against the poll tax or disability cuts.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Are you going to apply that same logic to the Brexit March?

Which Brexit march?

 

[redsquirrel]

Which Brexit march?

Sorry I wasn't very clear. In the first sentence I meant the twats doing Farage's walk. In the second sentence I meant yesterdays people's vote march.

 

[Cid]

Seems to me that Remain's main hope us that the establishment (or at least the majority faction that oppose Brexit) pulls the plug. As butchersapron says a top down power move.

Which could happen regardless of any remain protests. Cos, y"know it's the establishment acting to preserve the status quo in its own interests.

So...the petition and the march and all the exhortations? A waste of time and effort?

I still don't really see much chance of revoke... Not while there are other options, and there will be other options right up to the wire. Contingent on May resignation/no-confidence. GE in those circumstances pretty much inevitable, then the options might be for 2nd ref, or maybe Norway on a Corbyn win (I'm going to coin Corway). Revoke will poison anyone attached to it indefinitely... The problem is obviously time scale, but in the broad context of changing government etc, I suspect the EU will be more flexible than is currently apparent.

The thing that might scupper that is the relentless force that is Theresa May. I think she's trying to put off MV3 so that everyone is basically in the same boat that they would have been in without the extension; my deal or no deal tomorrow. Though even if she did that I think it would be very likely that some kind of remain amendment would be attached. And its entirely possible that no-confidence will go through first.

Anyway, wandering off your main point... Remain is a weird thing. Its brought together a lot of factions that are normally polarised. And I think that's pretty dangerous... I'm seeing a drift toward centrism, not just in my family (which is broadly m/c and therefore not that relevant here), but in friends who are... Kind of semi-political I suppose. Teachers, nurses etc, union members who understand the effects of capitalism, but have little desire to get into left wing political groups. The people who are talking to them about what is an incredibly dominant part of mainstream political discourse at the moment are the kind of people talking at the remain march. I'm a remainer, but I am literally the only person I know outside of urban who will put the left case for brexit... The politics at play may be shitty, but many of the people aren't, and they're attached to the EU in a far more abstract sense than can be written off with rational looks at its policy and foundations.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The Remain demo and the petition are not any more or less of a power move, and certainly any more objectionable than countless other protests, from Poll Tax to disability benefits cuts. Protesters feel strongly about an issue they think is wrong, unjust and which will be think it will be highly damaging to a lot of us. How very dare they.

It might have zero effect on the eventual outcome but does anyone here actually have a problem with people expressing their feelings about it? Is it any more futile or mockable than campaigners protesting against library closures or council service cuts, which in the great majority of cases achieve sweet FA?

Are you honestly comparing that to the anti poll tax demos?

 

[redsquirrel]

The politics at play may be shitty, but many of the people aren't, and they're attached to the EU in a far more abstract sense than can be written off with rational looks at its policy and foundations.

This was basically what I was trying to say above.

 

[T & P]

Are you honestly comparing that to the anti poll tax demos?

I’m comparing the principle of protesting for issues one cares about, which appears to be arbitrary ITT.

But if you think the Poll Tax protests is a bad comparison, you can use any of the countless small scale protests up and down the country, most of which have far less of a chance of succeeding than Remain protests. Do you think they are worthy of mockery or contempt too?

 

[T & P]

Are you going to apply that same logic to the Brexit March?

And there's plenty that's objectionable about this march - Heseltine, Kendell, Umunna, LibDem shits, the pro-EU crap. That's not saying that everyone who marched is a wanker but the politics of this march are far shitter than those against the poll tax or disability cuts.

I don’t think one should criticise or dismiss a march of nearly a million ordinary people because a few dislakeable politicians are tagging along. Certainly given the amount of truly despicable individuals who are amongst the the Brexit support. And at a far higher and more objectionable level than their Remain opposites, one could add.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I’m comparing the principle of protesting for issues one cares about, which appears to be arbitrary ITT.

But if you think the Poll Tax protests is a bad comparison, you can use any of the countless small scale protests up and down the country, most of which have far less of a chance of succeeding than Remain protests. Do you think they are worthy of mockery or contempt too?

I've *been* on lots of protests I mocked and held in contempt mate, that's not the point. It's ludicrous to compare protesting against a vicious Thatcherite attack on the working class to protesting to remain in a Thatcherite trade bloc. What are you on?

 

[redsquirrel]

I don’t think one should criticise or dismiss a march of nearly a million ordinary people because a few dislakeable politicians are tagging along. Certainly given the amount of truly despicable individuals who are amongst the the Brexit support. And at a far higher and more objectionable level than their Remain opposites, one could add.

Dismiss no, but fuck off with criticise. Heseltine, Kendell, the tinge, yellow wankers, pro-EU nonsense - of course anyone who believes in socialism should be criticising these people and their politics. And I think a lot of the people on that march what criticise these twats.

There were a lot of people with a lot of different politics at yesterday's march but it's just ostrich nonsense to pretend that the politics of yesterday's march are equivalent to those of the anti-poll tax riots or cuts to disability. FFS some of those marching yesterday are the shits that instigated those cuts.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don’t think one should criticise or dismiss a march of nearly a million ordinary people because a few dislakeable politicians are tagging along. Certainly given the amount of truly despicable individuals who are amongst the the Brexit support. And at a far higher and more objectionable level than their Remain opposites, one could add.

There we go - Tony Blair, Anna Soubry and Alistair Campbell aren't as bad as Farage. Lesser evil. Sure. At least we know where you stand now eh? Sure, Blair is responsible for the death of a million Iraqi's but Farage is despicable.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Getting a million out onto the streets is impressive. What should be done with all those people now? What's the next step?

They should go back to their constituencies and prepare for...whatever May, Lidington, Gove, Chuka & Soubry tell them is going to happen next.