Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[SpineyNorman]

Ah bless, this must be the latest version of blokes who say they used to be sympathetic to feminism, until some women said something uppity they didn't like."

Yes. We're sexist as well as racist.

You stinking rotter.

 

[CRI]

Would you be a remainder if the scaremongering stuff turned out to be true?

By the time they find out, it will be rather too late.

 

[SpineyNorman]

You are missing the point. Can you make a sound defence of the EU that will appeal to someone with socialist values? That fact that the pro-EU arguments are so weak has motivated me to think more about whether leaving is really that bad.

I really wouldn't bother if I were you. This one is not interested in honest debate and discussion. A proven liar who thinks nothing of smearing half of urban as racists.

I'd be interested in the answer to that question but it won't come from there. mauvais seems like the most grounded one on here arguing for remain, I'd be interested in their take on this.

 

[SpineyNorman]

By the time they find out, it will be rather too late.

Yes, we'll all be finished. The dead will rise from their graves and enslave the living, led by a recently deceased nigel farrage who for some reason will sport a Hitler tache.

Could you tell us more about how imports and exports will be affected please? I'm in awe of your knowledge and fact checking abilities on that topic.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I really wouldn't bother if I were you. This one is not interested in honest debate and discussion. A proven liar who thinks nothing of smearing half of urban as racists.

I'd be interested in the answer to that question but it won't come from there. mauvais seems like the most grounded one on here arguing for remain, I'd be interested in their take on this.

Thanks, I didn't expect much having seen CRI previous posting. I think that type of content-free posting style is a cover when someone wants to defend a certain perspective but isn't confident they can do it convincingly.

 

[CRI]

You are missing the point. Can you make a sound defence of the EU that will appeal to someone with socialist values? That fact that the pro-EU arguments are so weak has motivated me to think more about whether leaving is really that bad.

How about YOU, or anyone here explain how leaving the EU, especially with "no deal" (as seems likely to happen) will "appeal" to someone with socialist values? How do you see those socialist values being upheld or promoted when the UK will never be self-sufficient in food production, when the UK will be a third country and extremely weak in negotiating with other countries for new trade arrangements. How are socialist values upheld when businesses flee the UK, taking jobs with them, and when food and fuel prices will rise? How are socialist values upheld after the UK government sells off more of the NHS so it's no longer free at the point of delivery in any form, and when the UK is forced to enter trade deals with the US that bring risky, poor quality food into the country?

Sorry, when someone says they are waiting for someone to convince them that a political action will "appeal to their values," without regard to the impact of those actions on actual, real people, it smacks of entitlement. Perhaps the people for whom this all seems just an intellectual exercise will be shielded from the worst of what will come if even the Government's own watered down predictions happen.

 

[SpineyNorman]

How about YOU, or anyone here explain how leaving the EU, especially with "no deal" (as seems likely to happen) will "appeal" to someone with socialist values? How do you see those socialist values being upheld or promoted when the UK will never be self-sufficient in food production, when the UK will be a third country and extremely weak in negotiating with other countries for new trade arrangements. How are socialist values upheld when businesses flee the UK, taking jobs with them, and when food and fuel prices will rise? How are socialist values upheld after the UK government sells off more of the NHS so it's no longer free at the point of delivery in any form, and when the UK is forced to enter trade deals with the US that bring risky, poor quality food into the country?

Sorry, when someone says they are waiting for someone to convince them that a political action will "appeal to their values," without regard to the impact of those actions on actual, real people, it smacks of entitlement. Perhaps the people for whom this all seems just an intellectual exercise will be shielded from the worst of what will come if even the Government's own watered down predictions happen.

See what I mean?

 

[CRI]

And ffs, it's pretty telling that some people continuously attack people and their characters here, rather than their arguments, but hey, that's the rarefied air of Urban for ya!

 

[SpineyNorman]

How are socialist values upheld when businesses flee the UK

If we were moving closer to socialism that's exactly what we'd see. Or do you think we should check our socialism is acceptable to capitalists before we get started?

How are socialist values upheld after the UK government sells off more of the NHS so it's no longer free at the point of delivery in any form,

Sorry, the EU is preventing this how exactly?

 

[SpineyNorman]

And ffs, it's pretty telling that some people continuously attack people and their characters here, rather than their arguments, but hey, that's the rarefied air of Urban for ya!

Isn't that precisely what you're doing in the above post? And with all the lies and smears that you've wiped across these boards like a 5 vindaloo skid mark.

 

[Sunset Tree]

How about YOU, or anyone here explain how leaving the EU, especially with "no deal" (as seems likely to happen) will "appeal" to someone with socialist values? How do you see those socialist values being upheld or promoted when the UK will never be self-sufficient in food production, when the UK will be a third country and extremely weak in negotiating with other countries for new trade arrangements. How are socialist values upheld when businesses flee the UK, taking jobs with them, and when food and fuel prices will rise? How are socialist values upheld after the UK government sells off more of the NHS so it's no longer free at the point of delivery in any form, and when the UK is forced to enter trade deals with the US that bring risky, poor quality food into the country?

Sorry, when someone says they are waiting for someone to convince them that a political action will "appeal to their values," without regard to the impact of those actions on actual, real people, it smacks of entitlement. Perhaps the people for whom this all seems just an intellectual exercise will be shielded from the worst of what will come if even the Government's own watered down predictions happen.

I'm not sure exactly what you think socialist values are

 

[Chz]

SpookyFrank said: ↑
Isn't telling someone that they're an enemy of the people if they don't agree with you quite a far-righty thing to do though?

I know you don't like BA but he really isn't do that is he. You don't have to share any his political opinions to think that post after post of shit video/gifs without even a comment is crap. No one is asking for essays but having a bit less of the twitter crap would be good for P&P.

I think it was unfair to BA, but fair to Urban as a whole. There are quite a lot of "with us 100%, or against us" types around these parts. And they seem baffled why people who agree with them 80% of the way can't stand them.

That being said, you'd have to be pretty ignorant of Soviet history to think it was only a far-righty thing. Communists are always cliquey as fuck, perhaps even moreso than the fascists.

(not really contributing to the thread, but I wanted to join in on the "pass the live hand grenade around the room" game)

 

[Sunset Tree]

CRI given the decision to leave has already been made, it would have to be a very strong case to overturn that decision. Much stronger than the case required to vote for it in the first place. Probably why you need to paint such an exaggerated doomsday scenario.

Do you think the EU is protective against the aspects neoliberalism you list, including the mobility of capital and privatisation of public services? Food and fuel prices have been rising for years, parts of the NHS have already been privatised.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The Lisbon treaty will usher in socialism and stave off the neoliberal devils. You'll just have to trust me on that but it's true honest.

 

[kebabking]

And ffs, it's pretty telling that some people continuously attack people and their characters here, rather than their arguments, but hey, that's the rarefied air of Urban for ya!

You could always fuck off....

 

[Sunset Tree]

And ffs, it's pretty telling that some people continuously attack people and their characters here, rather than their arguments, but hey, that's the rarefied air of Urban for ya!

Ah bless, this must be the latest version of blokes who say they used to be sympathetic to feminism, until some women said something uppity they didn't like."

In the bottom post you are attacking the character rather than the arguments

 

[mauvais]

I really wouldn't bother if I were you. This one is not interested in honest debate and discussion. A proven liar who thinks nothing of smearing half of urban as racists.

I'd be interested in the answer to that question but it won't come from there. mauvais seems like the most grounded one on here arguing for remain, I'd be interested in their take on this.

Cheers for the relative compliment, but I don't think there's much left to say at this point, and the thread is hardly at its most fruitful. My position has been that - I've always been very clear that - it's not so much that the EU is a positive or god forbid a model, but that it is at present in its negative effects on the UK almost completely eclipsed by, as well as recent & current governments, the probable domestic political winners of any feasible Leave. In other words, Brexit and indeed any large scale disruption is more likely to be exploited by capital than it is for any form of good for you and I, not only immediately but for our lifetimes. The exception to that is if the disruption were so severe that it might lead to what's effectively revolution, but if that is seen as a way forward, noone has ever been particularly keen to state what acceptable collateral damage would be.

I'm deeply aware of the many faults in my avoidant, risk-averse, pessimistic and lesser-evilist view that ultimately would be right at home in some shit Guardian editorial that I myself would find contemptible, but nonetheless I still consider it realistic.

I have quite a lot of sympathy for the underlying basis of sober pro-leave arguments on here, although I consider active proponents of leave to be reckless & naive. I have a fair amount of sympathy for individual remainer or indeed agnostic concerns - my own life in selfish terms has been significantly enhanced by the EU & I will likely be disadvantaged by any Brexit. To completely dismiss that is divisive.

I also have a tiny and strictly finite amount of sympathy for the kneejerk liberal remain stuff, including wanting to give someone or anyone a kicking, because you can't expect everyone to turn up having been appropriately re-educated already. That said, if they've posted here or been engaged in politics for any length of time, they should probably know better, at least on the fundamentals. You won't see me propping up the well-worn remain tropes or those who trot them out, but nothing much is gained from stabbing them to death either, and if you charitably assume that this stuff comes from ignorance, then the mere fact that we on here have all been there & done that already isn't enough of an excuse to write people off. Eesh, what a fucking liberal.

Not a very good message for the side of a bus, is it.

 

[philosophical]

The prospective practicalities regarding leaving interest me.
I am caught by the discussion that the day after brexit nothing much will have changed in practical terms, and I suspect that initially it will be true, there will be a sort of 'look...brexit, and the world hasn't ended' sense in the air.
However I fail to see how there can be no practical changes that won't have an impact, for good or ill. The word 'just' comes into play, we should 'just' leave and wing it from then on. To some that sounds great.
Makes me think about Trump when he shut down the American government, and at the time he did it maybe he thought it would be simple and folk would 'just' get on with it and wing it. Indeed the world didn't end the next day.
Then the practicalities started to emerge, for individuals in their daily lives in a myriad of ways, for systems that aid the smooth running of society, and I believe came to a head when air traffic control at Atlanta airport was at risk.
So in the face of change I think those who wish it to happen might want to think about the consequences rather than leave it all to fate and happenstance, and then find a way to make their desired change happen by taking responsibility for it.
Like solving the Irish land border problem.

 

[Wilf]

Ah bless, this must be the latest version of blokes who say they used to be sympathetic to feminism, until some women said something uppity they didn't like."

Finally, after 2 years and 825 pages, we finally get there! HOUSE!

 

[brogdale]

those who wish it to happen might want to think about the consequences rather than leave it all to fate

They have, and they want them.

 

[philosophical]

They have, and they want them.

I believe you have a point in as much as they might wan't a kind of chaos.
The sad part if it is true that chaos is the desire, is the detrimental practical impact it might have on individuals.

The following link from the New York Times, is quite an interesting timeline regarding the practical events following Trump's shutdown.
Brexit hasn't happened just yet, but I suspect the timeline of subsequent practical events arising would be similarly interesting.

Government Shutdown Timeline: See How the Effects Are Piling Up

 

[Sunset Tree]

Brexit and indeed any large scale disruption is more likely to be exploited by capital than it is for any form of good for you and I, not only immediately but for our lifetimes

Not sure what form this could take that is worse than what we've experienced as an EU member. What it comes down to for me is the EU offers no protection against, and actively encourages, the exploitation of society by capital.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Not sure what form this could take that is worse than what we've experienced as an EU member. What it comes down to for me is the EU offers no protection against, and actively encourages, the exploitation of society by capital.

It does, but leaving the EU doesn't mean you're any closer to a socialism coming about and in fact forces on the right will be the ones shaping the post brexit landscape.

 

[Sunset Tree]

It does, but leaving the EU doesn't mean you're any closer to a socialism coming about and in fact forces on the right will be the ones shaping the post brexit landscape.

Which will make no difference as they are the ones shaping the landscape now

 

[SpineyNorman]

Cheers for the relative compliment, but I don't think there's much left to say at this point, and the thread is hardly at its most fruitful. My position has been that - I've always been very clear that - it's not so much that the EU is a positive or god forbid a model, but that it is at present in its negative effects on the UK almost completely eclipsed by, as well as recent & current governments, the probable domestic political winners of any feasible Leave. In other words, Brexit and indeed any large scale disruption is more likely to be exploited by capital than it is for any form of good for you and I, not only immediately but for our lifetimes. The exception to that is if the disruption were so severe that it might lead to what's effectively revolution, but if that is seen as a way forward, noone has ever been particularly keen to state what acceptable collateral damage would be.

I'm deeply aware of the many faults in my avoidant, risk-averse, pessimistic and lesser-evilist view that ultimately would be right at home in some shit Guardian editorial that I myself would find contemptible, but nonetheless I still consider it realistic.

I have quite a lot of sympathy for the underlying basis of sober pro-leave arguments on here, although I consider active proponents of leave to be reckless & naive. I have a fair amount of sympathy for individual remainer or indeed agnostic concerns - my own life in selfish terms has been significantly enhanced by the EU & I will likely be disadvantaged by any Brexit. To completely dismiss that is divisive.

I also have a tiny and strictly finite amount of sympathy for the kneejerk liberal remain stuff, including wanting to give someone or anyone a kicking, because you can't expect everyone to turn up having been appropriately re-educated already. That said, if they've posted here or been engaged in politics for any length of time, they should probably know better, at least on the fundamentals. You won't see me propping up the well-worn remain tropes or those who trot them out, but nothing much is gained from stabbing them to death either, and if you charitably assume that this stuff comes from ignorance, then the mere fact that we on here have all been there & done that already isn't enough of an excuse to write people off. Eesh, what a fucking liberal.

Not a very good message for the side of a bus, is it.

To be completely honest there's nothing in there I can disagree with (I've tried though).

My position has been reposted a few times so I won't repeat it but the main real difference is I couldnt bring myself to vote remain.

Where I'd be more optimistic than you is that I think after an initial shit storm (mainly due to the lack of preparedness) I don't think it will be all that different.

As you say, capital will take advantage of us leaving. It would also take advantage of us remaining. How do we stop that? The boring and unfashionable shit most of us have been banging on about for years, community and workplace organising etc. And of course it's going to be really hard if half the people you're trying to organise with think the other half are racist fuckwits and in return they think they're traitors and establishment lackies.

That's why I maintain its not my fight. But among those I know its the remainers who are less tolerant of leavers and not vice versa which is why I always find myself arguing with them.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It does, but leaving the EU doesn't mean you're any closer to a socialism coming about and in fact forces on the right will be the ones shaping the post brexit landscape.

Just like it was them who shaped the pre brexit landscape. What changes?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Which will make no difference as they are the ones shaping the landscape now

I think it will as there will be greater opportunity for them to slash regulations, remove rights etc.

 

[Poot]

Right. I'm going to butt in here. Because Brexit and feminism collided a long time ago and this fact seems to have passed many by.

Firstly, of all the people who voted leave, it is the women who have the most to lose. If there is any risk to goods becoming more expensive and jobs being lost, ultimately that creates a situation where women are going to be more reliant than ever on men, especially working class women. Those trying to leave abusive relationships would find it more difficult. The prospect of being paid a decent whack to do caring jobs decreases significantly. It takes a lot more courage for a woman to upset the status quo by voting leave than it does a man. No surprise, then, that women actually voted by a slim margin to stay IN the EU.

I'm finding the tone of this whole thread quite difficult tbh. It would probably kill some of you to hear it but many of you who are talking about remainers as woolly liberal types are actually in many cases speaking from a position of privilege because you're men.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I think it will as there will be greater opportunity for them to slash regulations, remove rights etc.

Which regulations and rights would be most at risk? Genuine questions btw as I've not kept on top of brexit debates a great deal. I've always considered that human rights will be fine as even the tories are socially-liberal now if they can be economically liberal. Perhaps working regulations, but we already have zero hours contracts and all that, so no EU protections there.

 

[Pickman's model]

Right. I'm going to butt in here. Because Brexit and feminism collided a long time ago and this fact seems to have passed many by.

Firstly, of all the people who voted leave, it is the women who have the most to lose. If there is any risk to goods becoming more expensive and jobs being lost, ultimately that creates a situation where women are going to be more reliant than ever on men, especially working class women. Those trying to leave abusive relationships would find it more difficult. The prospect of being paid a decent whack to do caring jobs decreases significantly. It takes a lot more courage for a woman to upset the status quo by voting leave than it does a man. No surprise, then, that women actually voted by a slim margin to stay IN the EU.

I'm finding the tone of this whole thread quite difficult tbh. It would probably kill some of you to hear it but many of you who are talking about remainers as woolly liberal types are actually in many cases speaking from a position of privilege because you're men.

Tbh the most prominent remainers are all too often woolly liberal types who often harm their cause by ignoring the obvious, that the eu has flaws some of which are serious.