Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[campanula]

OK, please forgive because I am an errant thicko, but I asked my neighbouring beef farmer about his impending doom and he was honestly a bit baffled although expressed a few doubts that he might not have such a wide choice of bottled spunk...and from my point of view, I am thinking of Lincolnshire bulb fields and many small nurseries, not just unable to compete with a far less employer friendly Dutch model... but global movement of diseased plant stock has almost certainly ushered in chalara and the threat of xylella.

creeps from thread in dismay.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which regulations and rights would be most at risk? Genuine questions btw as I've not kept on top of brexit debates a great deal. I've always considered that human rights will be fine as even the tories are socially-liberal now if they can be economically liberal. Perhaps working regulations, but we already have zero hours contracts and all that, so no EU protections there.

The tories are socially liberal? You're having a laugh

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which regulations and rights would be most at risk? Genuine questions btw as I've not kept on top of brexit debates a great deal. I've always considered that human rights will be fine as even the tories are socially-liberal now if they can be economically liberal. Perhaps working regulations, but we already have zero hours contracts and all that, so no EU protections there.

EU protections are inadequate, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they don't make a meaningful difference. The right to holiday and sick pay as a part-time worker is a good example, a regulation brought in as an EU directive in around 2001. That made a massive difference to the lives of millions of low-paid, mostly female workers, and it is enforced - you get a part-time contract, you get holiday and sick pay now; before the EU reg, you mostly didn't. Things can get so much worse than they are now in this regard.

 

[Supine]

Which regulations and rights would be most at risk?

Some are listed here:

10 ways the EU protects British workers' rights

 

[Sunset Tree]

Some are listed here:

10 ways the EU protects British workers' rights

That article says they plan to convert all EU employment laws into UK law

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That article says they plan to convert all EU employment laws into UK law

Initially, yes. They can then repeal/change at their leisure. Within the EU they can't change a thing.

There are many leave-enthusiast tories who would love to get rid of much of that law. It wouldn't be framed like that, of course. It would be framed as a need for the UK to remain 'competitive', perhaps in response to one of those fabled trade deals, and for employers to have 'flexibility'. Remember Thatcher and all the buzz words around destroying worker rights that her government used?

 

[Wilf]

My position has been reposted a few times so I won't repeat it but the main real difference is I couldnt bring myself to vote remain.

.

When describing my own position I usually end up a bit verbose. That's prompted me into something more succinct: I'm not pro leave, but I'm anti-remain(er).

 

[SpineyNorman]

Initially, yes. They can then repeal/change at their leisure. Within the EU they can't change a thing.

There are many leave-enthusiast tories who would love to get rid of much of that law. It wouldn't be framed like that, of course. It would be framed as a need for the UK to remain 'competitive', perhaps in response to one of those fabled trade deals, and for employers to have 'flexibility'. Remember Thatcher and all the buzz words around destroying worker rights that her government used?

On the one hand the EU wouldn't be able to stop a UK government from, for example, subsidising a UK firm to save jobs because its toothless or something but they will step in and defend workers rights and the UK government will be powerless.

I think the first one could be correct - that if the UK wanted to subsidise firms they wouldn't be able to really stop them. But going on past behaviour i need to be convinced that they'd stop the government further eroding workers rights. This is the EU we're talking about.

 

[SpineyNorman]

When describing my own position I usually end up a bit verbose. That's prompted me into something more succinct: I'm not pro leave, but I'm anti-remain(er).

I'm pro all this shit going away and everyone forgetting about it. Not realistic but I actually have exactly the same ability to make that happen as I do remain or any particular flavour of leave so might as well make it my position.

 

[Supine]

I'm pro all this shit going away and everyone forgetting about it

I'm a remainer and I couldn't agree with this more

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On the one hand the EU wouldn't be able to stop a UK government from, for example, subsidising a UK firm to save jobs because its toothless or something but they will step in and defend workers rights and the UK government will be powerless.

I think the first one could be correct - that if the UK wanted to subsidise firms they wouldn't be able to really stop them. But going on past behaviour i need to be convinced that they'd stop the government further eroding workers rights. This is the EU we're talking about.

Yet the examples are there. The part-time worker rights are one of those examples. An EU directive that is enforced here and makes a measurable difference to millions of low-paid, mostly female workers. It's enforced here not because it is EU law. It's enforced here because it is UK law, brought in due to an EU directive, and the UK is a country that tends to enforce laws like that. Post-brexit, any UK law like that one can be changed by the UK government. And this is the tories we're talking about here. Of course they could do it.

 

[mauvais]

Not sure what form this could take that is worse than what we've experienced as an EU member. What it comes down to for me is the EU offers no protection against, and actively encourages, the exploitation of society by capital.

You're apparently saying you can't envisage things getting any worse than they are now. To be fair this forms the basis of various leaver arguments, and obviously I don't know your personal situation, but regardless of whether I'm right or not, I gently suggest that your imagination is a little lacking. There's plenty more to be done, both in scope and speed.

 

[Poot]

Tbh the most prominent remainers are all too often woolly liberal types who often harm their cause by ignoring the obvious, that the eu has flaws some of which are serious.

That there are serious flaws is obvious to most, probably. But fucking hell, being a woman, especially a working class woman, at the mercy of Jacob Rees Mogg (for example)? Jesus.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yet the examples are there. The part-time worker rights are one of those examples. An EU directive that is enforced here and makes a measurable difference to millions of low-paid, mostly female workers. It's enforced here not because it is EU law. It's enforced here because it is UK law, brought in due to an EU directive, and the UK is a country that tends to enforce laws like that. Post-brexit, any UK law like that one can be changed by the UK government. And this is the tories we're talking about here. Of course they could do it.

I think if they really wanted to go for it they wouldn't let the EU stop them. The Tory establishment (ignore the cartoon headbangers, the serious ones) - who I agree have exactly that agenda - are pro remain after all.

 

[Pickman's model]

That there are serious flaws is obvious to most, probably. But fucking hell, being a woman, especially a working class woman, at the mercy of Jacob Rees Mogg (for example)? Jesus.

Yeh I fear for that unfortunate nanny whose predicament is real and not potential

The serious flaws are conspicuous by their absence from the arguments of the most prominent remainers

 

[DexterTCN]

That article says they plan to convert all EU employment laws into UK law

Can't see the article...who says that, is it the tories?

 

[Sunset Tree]

Can't see the article...who says that, is it the tories?

Theresa May said it

In truth the current government is unlikely to scrap many, if any, of the rights – not least because Theresa May has promised that workers’ existing protections will be guaranteed while she is Prime Minister. The Government’s Great Repeal Bill will also convert all EU laws, including the ones relating to employment rights, to UK law – at least for now

 

[Sunset Tree]

You're apparently saying you can't envisage things getting any worse than they are now. To be fair this forms the basis of various leaver arguments, and obviously I don't know your personal situation, but regardless of whether I'm right or not, I gently suggest that your imagination is a little lacking. There's plenty more to be done, both in scope and speed.

This always comes back to whether the EU offers any real protections, which it certainly hasn't against austerity.

 

[DexterTCN]

Theresa May said it

Well...she only guarantees those rights as long as she's PM.

 

[DexterTCN]

This always comes back to whether the EU offers any real protections, which it certainly hasn't against austerity.

Austerity is a UK political program. Do you have comparative data for other EU countries? Say pensions or dole payments, both of which are being attacked under UK-instigated austerity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Theresa May said it

And for how long do you anticipate the nefandous may remaining prime minister?

 

[kebabking]

Austerity is a UK political program. Do you have comparative data for other EU countries? Say pensions or dole payments, both of which are being attacked under UK-instigated austerity.

I think I may have seen something about Greece in the papers....

 

[Sunset Tree]

Austerity is a UK political program. Do you have comparative data for other EU countries? Say pensions or dole payments, both of which are being attacked under UK-instigated austerity.

Austerity is an EU-wide political project, when Greece and Italy tried to go another way they met EU resistance.

 

[butchersapron]

Austerity is a UK political program. Do you have comparative data for other EU countries? Say pensions or dole payments, both of which are being attacked under UK-instigated austerity.

You literally have no idea of what has been happening in europe for a decade now. 50% youth unemployment, suicides, pensions destroyed etc it's ok though you're a nationalist now.

 

[DexterTCN]

Austerity is an EU-wide political project, when Greece and Italy tried to go another way they met EU resistance.

https://www.ohchr.org/documents/issues/poverty/eom_gb_16nov2018.pdf

 

[mauvais]

This always comes back to whether the EU offers any real protections, which it certainly hasn't against austerity.

The trouble with trying to address this is that any discussion of practical relative protections offered by the EU (which are also hypothetical, for now) quickly turns into one of absolutes and motivations. Therefore I leave it up to you to decide whether there's anything in whatever form of EU law - be it employment, consumer, environmental or whatever - that realistic future domestic governments of the UK would like to rid themselves of before the EU does the same.

 

[Santino]

Jordan Peterson destroyed the left.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Well...she only guarantees those rights as long as she's PM.

And for how long do you anticipate the nefandous may remaining prime minister?

I'm not saying it isn't possible that a UK government rolls back these protections, it's certainly something to be concerned about.

 

[Sunset Tree]

The trouble with trying to address this is that any discussion of practical relative protections offered by the EU (which are also hypothetical, for now) quickly turns into one of absolutes and motivations. Therefore I leave it up to you to decide whether there's anything in whatever form of EU law - be it employment, consumer, environmental or whatever - that realistic future domestic governments of the UK would like to rid themselves of before the EU does the same.

On the other hand, are there regulations a future UK government might want to introduce, which the EU would prevent.

 

[Sunset Tree]

You literally have no idea of what has been happening in europe for a decade now. 50% youth unemployment, suicides, pensions destroyed etc it's ok though you're a nationalist now.

Much of the Scottish nationalism movement is politically vapid, neoliberalism but we're more progressive than the English.