Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[SpackleFrog]

Agreed but I'd rather Labour carried on letting the tories fuck up brexit a bit longer, just to make sure it is all the tories' fault.

I don't know if you've noticed but aside from the Brexit sideshow this Tory government is quite literally killing people with its domestic policies. Election can't come soon enough for me.

 

[gosub]

It's way too soon to say 'shittest possible deal'. If there's a good deal on the table at any point someone will sabotage it for some stupid fucking reason and we'll end up with a last minute fag-packet deal that will go down in history as the UK's suicide note.

That we had NI going going no special treatment with London and Scotland simultaneously demanding we'll have what their having tells you that route is a dead end for UK. Eire can't wind their neck in either so logically fails the unanimity of the 27.
EFTA gives no hard border and equality of treatment while being MORE detached and isn't a back of a fag packet solution


The alternative, a fag packet solution where we carve off a bit of the country to better control immigration - fuck dat.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That we had NI going going no special treatment with London and Scotland simultaneously demanding we'll have what their having tells you that route is a dead end for UK. Eire can't wind their neck in either so logically fails the unanimity of the 27.
EFTA gives no hard border and equality of treatment while being MORE detached and isn't a back of a fag packet solution

EFTA is the only sensible way to go. Which is why it won't happen.

 

[krtek a houby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...e-dup-dark-money-and-a-saudi-prince-1.3083586
What connects Brexit, the DUP, dark money and a Saudi prince?
Could Brexit have been influenced... and not just the dark machinations of the DUP
Revealed: how US billionaire helped to back Brexit

Fair play to the ROI government for their patience...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Brexit is one ugly many-headed monster. No bit of it - the 'divorce bill', the border issue, the shite about 'settled status' for EU immigrants costing them more than a grand - is anything other than vile.

Weirdly, the DUP, in their disgusting bigotted way, are one of the few principled actors in all this. Incoherent - pro-leave despite the obvious problems - but principled. May should already have known that their 'guiding light' was the Union, and that they were evangelical in their simplistic zeal over this issue. They say it often enough. Anything that weakens that will be resisted, regardless of any other consequences. I am glad at least that the deal with the DUP is finally starting to hurt May.

 

[gosub]

Brexit is one ugly many-headed monster. No bit of it - the 'divorce bill', the border issue, the shite about 'settled status' for EU immigrants costing them more than a grand - is anything other than vile.

Weirdly, the DUP, in their disgusting bigotted way, are one of the few principled actors in all this. Incoherent - pro-leave despite the obvious problems - but principled. May should already have known that their 'guiding light' was the Union, and that they were evangelical in their simplistic zeal over this issue. They say it often enough. Anything that weakens that will be resisted, regardless of any other consequences. I am glad at least that the deal with the DUP is finally starting to hurt May.

We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.

 

[Raheem]

Weirdly, the DUP, in their disgusting bigotted way, are one of the few principled actors in all this. Incoherent - pro-leave despite the obvious problems - but principled. May should already have known that their 'guiding light' was the Union, and that they were evangelical in their simplistic zeal over this issue.

I think it's extremely unlikely that the DUP didn't assent to the deal. Maybe May can be blamed for not predicting that they would renege, but it's clearly a case of the DUP either not consulting widely enough in their own ranks, deliberately planning to fuck May over (less likely) or else just getting spooked once they heard it on Radio 4 and realised how it would sound to their people.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Brexit is one ugly many-headed monster. No bit of it - the 'divorce bill', the border issue, the shite about 'settled status' for EU immigrants costing them more than a grand - is anything other than vile.

Weirdly, the DUP, in their disgusting bigotted way, are one of the few principled actors in all this. Incoherent - pro-leave despite the obvious problems - but principled. May should already have known that their 'guiding light' was the Union, and that they were evangelical in their simplistic zeal over this issue. They say it often enough. Anything that weakens that will be resisted, regardless of any other consequences. I am glad at least that the deal with the DUP is finally starting to hurt May.

There is nothing "principled" about the DUP...and there never has been.
They are just extremely UNIONIST and detest Eire and all she stands for...and Brexit gives them back their mouthpiece.
Arlene Foster became a 1970s Ian Paisley yesterday. She revelled in Unionism. The DUP dont give a fuck about anyone but unionists in NI....they will never represent the rest of the population of NI and that is a massive problem. They're bigotted arseholes who have returned to the hard line politics of a previous generation ...
Jeez .. even Paisley changed and grew to work with the SDLP and Sinn Fein because eventually peace became the ONLY way forward.
Foster is a fucking fool....principles like hers got many people killed and fucked up society in NI for too long. She is a failure as the leader of NI. She rejects half the population and still only represents unionists...she doesnt get the fact that as head of government she has to look at all aspects and represent all the population of NI.

Blinkered fool....

 

[redsquirrel]

When you enemies are having a bad day, leave them to get on with it. Labour will form a solid position when the Tories have finally imploded, likely before next year's general election.

Does anyone know which reports are coming out on Wednesday? I have heard rumours within the party (and at this point they are rumours) that if the reports show massive economic damage to the country Labour will take a hard revoke Article 50 stance.

I expected them to do this as some point and with the withdrawal date fast approaching it is now or never I guess. All about playing the long game whilst this Tories tear themselves apart.

Two weeks ago you claimed that a hard revoke A50 stance was coming shortly. You're now admitting this was rubbish?

----------

I'm still not convinced that there will be an election, it might happen but it's far from certain. The lack of challenge to May after the election shows that there's not much appetite for a leadership campaign in the Tories, and at the moment no challenger that can draw support from the different strands within the party. The DUP can bluster and shout but putting out the Tories would be a big step. And the FTPA provides more stability for minority governments.

 

[krtek a houby]

The DUP. Surely the ultimate in identity politics.

 

[redsquirrel]

Anything concrete he says at this point is likely to lose him ground somehow. I daresay someone at labour HQ has run the numbers on this and decided that the best thing to do at this point is quietly watch the tories fuck the pooch. Best thing for the labour party that is, not necessarily what anyone thinks is in the national interest.

I agree with you about the LP, but what the hell is "the national interest"? You're supposed to be an anarchist and you think such a thing exists?

Come on this is nonsense. The interests of capital are not the interest of labour, there is no national interest, it's as much a nonsense as "the economy".

 

[Fingers]

Two weeks ago you claimed that a hard revoke A50 stance was coming shortly. You're now admitting this was rubbish?

----------

I'm still not convinced that there will be an election, it might happen but it's far from certain. The lack of challenge to May after the election shows that there's not much appetite for a leadership campaign in the Tories, and at the moment no challenger that can draw support from the different strands within the party. The DUP can bluster and shout but putting out the Tories would be a big step. And the FTPA provides more stability for minority governments.

For the record, i still think that over the coming weeks Labour will either harden into an anti A50 stance or at the very least, a pause and reflect stance when this current shower of shit goes tits up.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I think it's extremely unlikely that the DUP didn't assent to the deal. Maybe May can be blamed for not predicting that they would renege, but it's clearly a case of the DUP either not consulting widely enough in their own ranks, deliberately planning to fuck May over (less likely) or else just getting spooked once they heard it on Radio 4 and realised how it would sound to their people.

I cant see anyway that the DUP would have agreed any deal that meant separate status for northern ireland. That would have been even more extraordinary than sealing such a deal without consulting the "no surrender" merchants in the first place - (which is what seem to have happened yesterday). Blinkered intransigence is what they do.

 

[Winot]

Official Labour policy seems to be that they would stay in single market transitionally or permanently. Which I would argue is a retreat from the "Jobs First" line that they used in the GE - I quite liked that, no point saying what you would do in negotiations you're not part of but sets out a basic aim, and while it is vague like the RWB Brexit at least its a vague promise of prioritising jobs rather than nationalism. Whether or not you agree that the Jobs First thing is compatible with single market membership depends on what your job creation strategy is really - presumably Corbyn's was going to focus on public sector and nationalisation, I don't think this fits.

Labour has only softened on SM membership for a transitional period. It hasn’t changed its position from the General Election afaik, which stated clearly to end FoM (and therefore end to SM).

 

[redsquirrel]

For the record, i still think that over the coming weeks Labour will either harden into an anti A50 stance or at the very least, a pause and reflect stance when this current shower of shit goes tits up.

Pause and reflect on leaving the EU?

 

[teuchter]

Seems to me that the DUP have done the right thing, if for the wrong reasons. Why should there be a special arrangement for one part of the UK? If you take the position that a hard border would be damaging to NI then it's inconsistent to say that a hard border would not be damaging for the rest of the UK, for similar reasons.

If the fact that NI voted to remain is the justification then I don't see how you can deny the same arrangement to Scotland or London.

Are any of urban's Lexiteers on this thread? What did you assume would be the solution to the NI question, when you voted for Brexit?

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Seems to me that the DUP have done the right thing, if for the wrong reasons. Why should there be a special arrangement for one part of the UK? If you take the position that a hard border would be damaging to NI then it's inconsistent to say that a hard border would not be damaging for the rest of the UK, for similar reasons.

If the fact that NI voted to remain is the justification then I don't see how you can deny the same arrangement to Scotland or London.

Are any of urban's Lexiteers on this thread? What did you assume would be the solution to the NI question, when you voted for Brexit?

Because the DUP do not represent many people living in NI who are Irish..... who have dual citizenship

This was thrashed out as part of the GFA.

The DUP seem to want to ignore that agreement fot the sake of being in power.
It's the whiff of power that's gotten to Arlene Foster....not any duty of service to the people living in NI

 

[DexterTCN]

Peter A Bell and 11 others liked
James Melville‏ @JamesMelville 11h11 hours ago
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[Fedayn]

Because the DUP do not represent many people living in NI who are Irish..... who have dual citizenship

This was thrashed out as part of the GFA.

The DUP seem to want to ignore that agreement fot the sake of being in power.
It's the whiff of power that's gotten to Arlene Foster....not any duty of service to the people living in NI

In fairness to the DUP they never signed the GFA.....

On a serious note, of course one of the possibly delicious ironies of their actions is the collapse of the Government, a snap election and a Corbyn victory. A scenario the DUP will presumably like even less.....

 

[flypanam]

Are any of urban's Lexiteers on this thread? What did you assume would be the solution to the NI question, when you voted for Brexit?

Right, just some background. I a socialist and I'm Irish. I voted to leave. The reason being that the EU is an organisation pushing a neo liberal agenda. I also thought that by leaving a space might open up for left wing politics. That seems to be happening.

As regards the NI question, I never for one minute ever thought of it as solved and I suspect that no lefty on Urban did either. The solution has always been a 32 county Republic, although I would prefer a 32 county Workers' Republic. However in the here and now a lot of my British workmates are questioning why the British state is in the North.

 

[ska invita]

Seems to me that the DUP have done the right thing, if for the wrong reasons. Why should there be a special arrangement for one part of the UK? If you take the position that a hard border would be damaging to NI then it's inconsistent to say that a hard border would not be damaging for the rest of the UK, for similar reasons.

?

why shouldn't there be a special arrangement? All parts of the uk currently have all kinds of special arrangements...NI currently has its own laws, separate from those of the rest of the union for example.

clearly a border within Ireland has a unique meaning and history that makes it different to a border in the sea.

no one knows what happened to make the DUP balk when a few hours earlier it seemed there was agreement...my total guess is that it dawned on them that this would be another small step towards a united Ireland and open more room for the uk to fragment elsewhere, though you'd expect they already knew that. It is weird

 

[Arbeter Fraynd]

Are any of urban's Lexiteers on this thread? What did you assume would be the solution to the NI question, when you voted for Brexit?

Not that I'm one of them, but surely almost all 'lexiteers' would want to see a united Ireland?

 

[Winot]

Not that I'm one of them, but surely almost all 'lexiteers' would want to see a united Ireland?

Absolutely. If you believe 5 impossible things before breakfast, why not add a 6th?

 

[teqniq]

 

[teuchter]

Right, just some background. I a socialist and I'm Irish. I voted to leave. The reason being that the EU is an organisation pushing a neo liberal agenda. I also thought that by leaving a space might open up for left wing politics. That seems to be happening.

As regards the NI question, I never for one minute ever thought of it as solved and I suspect that no lefty on Urban did either. The solution has always been a 32 county Republic, although I would prefer a 32 county Workers' Republic. However in the here and now a lot of my British workmates are questioning why the British state is in the North.

I'm not quite clear - when you voted for leave did you think you were voting for a 32 county republic as part of the deal?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Timed for just before the Cabinet meeting. Perhaps a gentle reminder that the Scottish Tory MPs should not be taken for granted?

 

[teuchter]

why shouldn't there be a special arrangement? All parts of the uk currently have all kinds of special arrangements...NI currently has its own laws, separate from those of the rest of the union for example.

My question would be what the reasoning is behind giving NI a special arrangement, and why this reasoning doesn't apply to the whole of the UK, or to other parts of the UK like Scotland or London.

 

[ska invita]

My question would be what the reasoning is behind giving NI a special arrangement, and why this reasoning doesn't apply to the whole of the UK, or to other parts of the UK like Scotland or London.

because there doesnt need to be a border anywhere else other than with The Continent and with RoI

 

[flypanam]

I'm not quite clear - when you voted for leave did you think you were voting for a 32 county republic as part of the deal?

I can't say that I thought it would be an immediate outcome, but I did think it would expose the contradictions of the British presence in the six counties, to a wider public.

eta: Quite a few of my workmates are surprised that the current border is a 20th century invention and are starting to question why it is there. That to me is progress.

 

[teuchter]

Because the DUP do not represent many people living in NI who are Irish..... who have dual citizenship

This was thrashed out as part of the GFA.

Are you saying that the fact that there are people in NI with dual citizenship is a reason not to have a hard border? If so, why?