Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[two sheds]

Obviously there's some tinkering to be done but if we want to reintroduce a pre-feudal system of political economy into the UK you could do much worse than use the Brehon Laws as a starting point

Interesting piece by Marx I've just read that butchers pointed to a (long) while ago about the theft of Scottish land from clanspeople in 18th and 19th centuries:

Thus you see, the clan is nothing but a family organized in a military manner, quite as little defined by laws, just as closely hemmed in by traditions, as any family. But the land is the property of the family, in the midst of which differences of rank, in spite of consanguinity, do prevail as well as in all the ancient Asiatic family communities.

The first usurpation took place, after the expulsion of the Stuarts, by the establishment of the family Regiments. From that moment, pay became the principal source of revenue of the Great Man, the Mhoir-Fhear-Chattaibh. Entangled in the dissipation of the Court of London, he tried to squeeze as much money as possible out of his officers, and they applied the same system of their inferiors. The ancient tribute was transformed into fixed money contracts. In one respect these contracts constituted a progress, by fixing the traditional imposts; in another respect they were a usurpation, inasmuch as the “great man” now took the position of landlord toward the “taksmen” who again took toward the peasantry that of farmers. And as the “great men” now required money no less than the “taksmen”, a production not only for direct consumption but for export and exchange also became necessary; the system of national production had to be changed, the hands superseded by this change had to be got rid of. Population, therefore, decreased. But that it as yet was kept up in a certain manner, and that man, in the 18th century, was not yet openly sacrificed to net-revenue, we see from a passage in Steuart, a Scotch political economist, whose work was published 10 years before Adam Smith’s, where it says (Vol.1, Chap.16):

“The rent of these lands is very trifling compared to their extent, but compared to the number of mouths which a farm maintains, it will perhaps be found that a plot of land in the highlands of Scotland feeds ten times more people than a farm of the same extent in the richest provinces.”

That even in the beginnings of the 19th century the rental imposts were very small, is shown by the work of Mr Loch (1820), the steward of the Countess of Sutherland, who directed the improvements on her estates. He gives for instance the rental of the Kintradawell estate for 1811, from which it appears that up to then, every family was obliged to pay a yearly impost of a few shillings in money, a few fowls, and some days’ work, at the highest.

It was only after 1811 that the ultimate and real usurpation was enacted, the forcible transformation of clan-property into the private property, in the modern sense, of the Chief. The person who stood at the head of this economical revolution was a female Mehemet Ali, who had well digested her Malthus — the Countess of Sutherland, alias Marchioness of Stafford.

The Duchess of Sutherland and Slavery by Karl Marx

 

[andysays]

Its hard to tell from that if it was actually said at the meeting to Corbyns face...id guess not. Hard to tell from the reporting.

a very british all above board bung...british corruption is a well oiled machine - envy of the world

There's an article by Laura K from yesterday on the BBC website which might be worth reading. Although what's happening here is unusual in how blatant it is, it certainly isn't unique in British politics.

And the EU policy of supporting regional development and then putting up a sign to say where the money for the new road etc has come from isn't a million miles/kilometres away either...

 

[brogdale]

She can't stiff the DUP because thats the slim majority gone. What guarantee have any potential labour rebels got? Have to be a mug to go for it unless its part of a wider attempt to fuck the party in general.

She'll stiff the DUP on the 14th; she'll have nothing else that she can do. That's why she's wooing PLP arseholes like Mann; she'll need Lab votes if she's got any hope of getting her (unaltered) agreement passed.

 

[two sheds]

So where is Corbyn calling out this despicable behaviour? Of all the open goals...

How would we know whether Corbyn was calling out this despicable behaviour?

 

[SpookyFrank]

How would we know whether Corbyn was calling out this despicable behaviour?

He has some limited access to news outlets.

 

[two sheds]

He has some limited access to news outlets.

Well there was a piece in the Mirror. Theresa May in furious backlash for 'bribing' Labour MPs to back her Brexit deal

Remain-backing MP Neil Coyle added: "If the Prime Minister has money to try and bribe gullible MPs to back her UK downgrade, she's got the money to end the shameful rise in rough sleeping since she came to office."

Jeremy Corbyn said every Labour MP should "demand appropriate resources for their constituencies."

He said: "Many, particularly from mining areas, have been disgracefully treated by this Tory government and indeed previous ones - ever since the miners' strike in the 1980s.

Is it Corbyn's fault these aren't being plastered across the front pages of the Sun, Daily Mail and Daily Express? And did you look before making your claim?

 

[ska invita]

I looked and couldnt find...theres a massive difference between "every Labour MP should "demand appropriate resources for their constituencies." and calling this out for what it is. I do wish Corbyn/Lab front bench would get a bit angry and on the offensive once in a while

"every Labour MP should "demand appropriate resources for their constituencies." is hardly a front page battle cry

 

[two sheds]

I looked and couldnt find...theres a massive difference between "every Labour MP should "demand appropriate resources for their constituencies." and calling this out for what it is. I do wish Corbyn/Lab front bench would get a bit angry and on the offensive once in a while

If they don't go with the quote before his: "If the Prime Minister has money to try and bribe gullible MPs to back her UK downgrade, she's got the money to end the shameful rise in rough sleeping since she came to office." they probably wouldn't report Corbyn saying similar either.

Point taken, and I wish he'd get angrier, but he does say stuff and there's no way people will find out unless they go to one of his meetings or see reports of them.

 

[brogdale]

It's almost as though forces antipathetic to the goals of social democracy control the media

 

[ska invita]

If they don't go with the quote before his: "If the Prime Minister has money to try and bribe gullible MPs to back her UK downgrade, she's got the money to end the shameful rise in rough sleeping since she came to office." they probably wouldn't report Corbyn saying similar either.

Point taken, and I wish he'd get angrier, but he does say stuff and there's no way people will find out unless they go to one of his meetings or see reports of them.

The quote before was from a back bench MP ive never heard of..all eyes were on corbyn at that historic [sic] meeting with May - he should have come out of there stood outside number 10 and called them all sick cunts* i think they're justified to go ballistic over this and never let it drop

*if it was said at the meeting, which im not sure it was, but still

#releasethefunds

 

[two sheds]

Yes true enough.

 

[Supine]

He has some limited access to news outlets.

And his own twitter and fb accounts for direct messaging

 

[two sheds]

Who made that offer (6bill for the north)? is it on public record?

ETA: Im gleaning that it was at the May & Corbyn meeting?? Is that right?
Fuck me, Labour should go to town on this and expose the Tories over this, turn it around and say to the country: The Tories deliberately withhold the funding you desperately need but are prepared to use your poverty as a gambling chip. Its a total disgrace if that's what's happened. Labour should force the 6billion investment whatever, now they've 'admitted' the money is available from the magic money tree

I deleted the "Fuck me" and e-mailed this to my local Labour candidate. I wish there was a Labour or Momentum forum for things like this. They only seem to be active on Facebook and Twitter.

 

[butchersapron]

And his own twitter and fb accounts for direct messaging

Tell us exactly what he should be doing. Don't just say doing better or something equally meaningless. Tell us what he should say/do, how he should say/do it and and to whom he should say/do it - stuff like that. Then how he should deal with resistance to him doing this and so on. Off you go.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The quote before was from a back bench MP ive never heard of..all eyes were on corbyn at that historic [sic] meeting with May - he should have come out of there stood outside number 10 and called them all sick cunts* i think they're justified to go ballistic over this and never let it drop

*if it was said at the meeting, which im not sure it was, but still

#releasethefunds

I'm really not sure if Corbyn should have met with May at all. But having met her, he should have called a press conference immediately and hammered her. Caroline Lucas managed to do that and she's the only MP in a party of tinfoil lunatics.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Tell us exactly what he should be doing. Don't just say doing better or something equally meaningless. Tell us what he should say/do, how he should say/do it and and to whom he should say/do it - stuff like that. Then how he should deal with resistance to him doing this and so on. Off you go.

But don't you see Butchers? Corbyn should be demanding we Remain. Anything else is a betrayal of the labour movement. #FACTZ

 

[teuchter]

There's an article by Laura K from yesterday on the BBC website which might be worth reading. Although what's happening here is unusual in how blatant it is, it certainly isn't unique in British politics.

And the EU policy of supporting regional development and then putting up a sign to say where the money for the new road etc has come from isn't a million miles/kilometres away either...

That's not the same at all. Doing the stuff and then letting people know how it was paid for is not the same as telling people that you'll only do the stuff if they first do something in exchange.

 

[philosophical]

I just want to be clear on this: you think that it should have been the policy of the Labour Party, after the referendum had taken place, to overturn the result of the referendum?

I’m not talking here about whether they, as individuals or collectively, regretted the result, but that they should have had a stated policy to overturn the referendum result, and that’s your advice to the Labour Party?

I

I mean, I think that’s problematic.

I

I agree it may be problematic, but in my view Labour should campaign against brexit because that was their stance before the referendum.

 

[butchersapron]

I

I agree it may be problematic, but in my view Labour should campaign against brexit because that was their stance before the referendum.

Labour's position is and was to respect the results of the referendum.

 

[butchersapron]

It's amazing how you approach things really - you pick a random point then insist that this should apply forevermore - the GFA, a (misunderstood) position in a referendum once held must be stuck to forever etc This isn't really politics is it. The only political bit is where you choose at which point history stops isn't it? That actually is intensely political.

 

[kebabking]

I

I agree it may be problematic, but in my view Labour should campaign against brexit because that was their stance before the referendum.

but Labour campaigned for/accepted Brexit in the post-referendum 2017 General Election. so you think that Labour should campaign for a thing that lost a referendum and was entirely contrary to its promises in a subsequent GE?

problematic?

you are the idiot of the worlds largest, and most idiot filled village, and i claim my five pounds...

 

[Wilf]

I

I agree it may be problematic, but in my view Labour should campaign against brexit because that was their stance before the referendum.

Labour have difficulties over Brexit, of course (support in remain cities vs leave towns; Corbyn more leave minded than his MPs and activists etc.). To my mind, the leadership have reacted the wrong way to this, just sticking with the 6 tests for so long, hoping to mount a sneak attack in Parliament at some point. Would have been better to try and work on the actual causes of the Brexit vote and do something about that, which might in turn have meant doing something about the Labour Party itself.

But it doesn't matter how much of this you factor in, the one single they had to take account of was the vote to leave.

 

[Wilf]

but Labour campaigned for/accepted Brexit in the post-referendum 2017 General Election. so you think that Labour should campaign for a thing that lost a referendum and was entirely contrary to its promises in a subsequent GE?

problematic?

you are the idiot of the worlds largest, and most idiot filled village, and i claim my five pounds...

… and voted for a50.

 

[Wilf]

I

I agree it may be problematic, but in my view Labour should campaign against brexit because that was their stance before the referendum.

Seriously, that is an immensely daft logic.

 

[philosophical]

but Labour campaigned for/accepted Brexit in the post-referendum 2017 General Election. so you think that Labour should campaign for a thing that lost a referendum and was entirely contrary to its promises in a subsequent GE?

problematic?

you are the idiot of the worlds largest, and most idiot filled village, and i claim my five pounds...

Thanks for that.
The Labour party position has been poor since before the 2017 election when they said they 'respected' the result. They could have accepted that as a party they lost brexit, and left it to the winners to get on with, whilst opposing every move every step of the way
They ought not to have made brexit 'promises' before the 2017 election in my view, and declared that they were against the referendum result.

 

[kebabking]

… and voted for a50.

indeed. and voted for the referendum, and said that A50 should be invoked the day after the ref.

problematic is an excellent euphamism - lets try it out in some other situations:

i had a problematic conversation with my wife when she caught me balls deep in her sister. i had a problematic interview with HR after they discovered that i had paid off my mortgage with the company pension scheme. i had a problematic letter from the CPS after i admitted to the Police that i have been importing some 90 tonnes of Heroin each year for the last decade...

 

[butchersapron]

Thanks for that.
The Labour party position has been poor since before the 2017 election when they said they 'respected' the result. They could have accepted that as a party they lost brexit, and left it to the winners to get on with, whilst opposing every move every step of the way
They ought not to have made brexit 'promises' before the 2017 election in my view, and declared that they were against the referendum result.

And been wiped out as a party at this point.

 

[killer b]

Didn't the conservative party also campaign against Brexit in the referendum?

 

[Pickman's model]

i had a problematic conversation with my wife when she caught me balls deep in her sister.

If this was radio show 'the unbelievable truth' I'd buzz after this as one of the truths you were trying to smuggle past the panel

 

[Teaboy]

See I just think that Labour Party policy should be exactly aligned with my own thoughts on subjects. If not they are wrong and rubbish.