Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Pickman's model]

Posted on John Harris's article in the Guardian about the growing tensions/culture wars around Brexit, and before anyone says this is just CIF, ignore it, this unpleasant Eloi/Moorlock bifurcation as an example of class snobbery is being replicated in numerous middle class milieus across the UK, inc social media.

I see you added this little paragraph after I pointed out tim martin not kiwi

 

[Pickman's model]

treelover you ask if I care to respond to the substantive point. I've responded to the post as it was originally posted.

 

[Ranbay]

Yeah

 

[treelover]

I see you added this little paragraph after I pointed out tim martin not kiwi

for gods sake, i was having trouble with the quotes!

now could you reply, i am interested to know if my opinion is shared about this growing class snobbery.

 

[Pickman's model]

for gods sake, i was having trouble with the quotes!

Not my problem

 

[Ranbay]

See

 

[hot air baboon]

Posted on John Harris's article in the Guardian about the growing tensions/culture wars around Brexit, and before anyone says this is just CIF, ignore it, this unpleasant Eloi/Moorlock bifurcation as an example of class snobbery is being replicated in numerous middle class milieus across the UK, inc social media.

 

[Wilf]

View attachment 159345

"A lot of my friends are..."

 

[Pickman's model]

now could you reply, i am interested to know if my opinion is shared about this growing class snobbery.

this wasn't there when I replied a minute ago

As anyone who reads the guardian knows there is nothing new in this class snobbery, and I'd like to see some evidence for your claim it's growing

 

[chilango]

You'll have to take my Wetherspoons veggie sausage and mash from my cold dead hand.

I don't think that's a particularly uncommon scenario.

 

[butchersapron]

Posted on John Harris's article in the Guardian about the growing tensions/culture wars around Brexit, and before anyone says this is just CIF, ignore it, this unpleasant Eloi/Moorlock bifurcation as an example of class snobbery is being replicated in numerous middle class milieus across the UK, inc social media.

I don't think it's growing so much we are just seeing a number of factors bringing it to light anew and removing the factors that previously kept it quiet or able to be managed. We had people calling for restrictions on the franchise on hidden class grounds the day after the referendum, people arguing for what effectively is a franchise tied to 'property in the nation' etc. And we also see leave people from v privileged positions attempting to play the role of the 'smallest he' in return. The social apartheid it's bringing to light has long been a feature of this society - i'd put the height of the hidden growth of it (that is, on top of the traditional cleavages around work education and housing) around the first two new labour govts - and it was always going to be uncovered when the tide went out.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think that's a particularly uncommon scenario.

I can recommend the fish and chips at grimsby's wetherspoons, the yarborough hotel

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think it's growing so much we are just seeing a number of factors bringing it to light anew and removing the factors that previously kept it quiet or able to be managed. We had people calling for restrictions on the franchise on hidden class grounds the day after the referendum, people arguing for what effectively is a franchise tied to 'property in the nation' etc. And we also see leave people fro, v privileged positions attempting to play the role of the 'smallest he' in return. The social apartheid it's bringing to light has long been a feature of this society - i'd put the height of the hidden growth of it (that is, on top of the traditional cleavages around work education and housing) around the first two new labour govts - and it was always going to be uncovered when the tide went out.

There was a load of shit in the Guardian in the ref campaign saying almost explicitly you need to be thick racist and working class to vote leave

 

[belboid]

for gods sake, i was having trouble with the quotes!

now could you reply, i am interested to know if my opinion is shared about this growing class snobbery.

I'd recommend noting that it is a comment from a reader, not John Harris himself. Is one person really evidence of such 'growing class snobbery'?

 

[treelover]

Butchers reply would appear to endorse this view and there are many other examples on social media, etc. The post also got a lot of recommends

 

[belboid]

Butchers reply would appear to endorse this view and there are many other examples on social media, etc. The post also got a lot of recommends

I'm not entirely sure that "I don't think it's growing" is really an endorsement of your view that it is growing.

 

[kebabking]

I would certainly say - in a liberal, wishy-washy, both one thing and the other way - that there has been a growth in the acceptability of the public espousement of snobbishness/class hatred that treelover is talking about.

 

[chilango]

I'm just writing a piece about social mobility and schools and the the role they play in widening the gap and right in the first fucking paragraph I found myself referencing the Brexit vote - comparing a map of social mobility and Brexit vote shows a stark correlation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Butchers reply would appear to endorse this view and there are many other examples on social media, etc. The post also got a lot of recommends

Doesn't really cut the evidence mustard

 

[grit]

Poland sticking their oar in now Backstop trouble: first cracks in the EU's solidarity with Ireland on Brexit - Independent.ie

 

[butchersapron]

Ah i see, EU concerns and positions suddenly become oars.

 

[teuchter]

S/He didn’t expressly outline the formal, deductive argument either. I’m not quoting: I’m inferring. (As I think is quite clear from the content and context of my post).

I don't think it's clear. When you say, for example,

you are not clearly defining "progressive"

that rather strongly implies someone has used that word; otherwise you are complaining that they have failed to define a term they haven't even used.

It read more like speculation than inference to me. Speculation that a remain proponent conforms to remainer stereotypes.

 

[teuchter]

View attachment 159345

Here's the whole of the table:


In order of bothered-ness about a relative marrying a leave voter:

Intend to vote Lib dem: 50% bothered
Voted remain: 37% bothered
2017 Lib dem voters: 33% bothered
Intend to vote Labour: 32% bothered
2017 Labour voters: 32% bothered
18-24 yr olds: 32% bothered

Looking at class:

ABC1: 24% bothered
C2DE: 14% bothered

 

[danny la rouge]

Speculation that a remain proponent conforms to remainer stereotypes.

Did you read the context? The context of Ming ‘s conspiracy theory that the Tories who supported Remain weren’t really “Remain” supporters?

I think a lot of remain Tories are lying about being remainers (including Cameron)

I was starting from there, and wondering how someone might get to that point. What might the reasoning be that leads to that conclusion.

If I’m wrong Ming will no doubt get back to me.

 

[TopCat]

I dread a referendum, but believe remain would probably win. Now people have seen the darker shades of Brexit never revealed for the first ballot, let them decide. Incidentally, focus groups show the so-called magic slogan, “Tell them again!”, only works with die-hard no dealers: those thinking again flinch at its aggressive tone. Simplistic slogans won’t swing it this time. What will win is a Labour campaign promising to change the country with a shift of power, wealth and well-paid work out of London and the south, understanding what the Brexit vote really meant.

• Polly Toynbee is a Guardian columnist

 

[Pickman's model]

Here's the whole of the table:
View attachment 159360

In order of bothered-ness about a relative marrying a leave voter:

Intend to vote Lib dem: 50% bothered
Voted remain: 37% bothered
2017 Lib dem voters: 33% bothered
Intend to vote Labour: 32% bothered
2017 Labour voters: 32% bothered
18-24 yr olds: 32% bothered

Looking at class:

ABC1: 24% bothered
C2DE: 14% bothered

What were the results if the leave voter was a dogger?

 

[Pickman's model]

I dread a referendum, but believe remain would probably win. Now people have seen the darker shades of Brexit never revealed for the first ballot, let them decide. Incidentally, focus groups show the so-called magic slogan, “Tell them again!”, only works with die-hard no dealers: those thinking again flinch at its aggressive tone. Simplistic slogans won’t swing it this time. What will win is a Labour campaign promising to change the country with a shift of power, wealth and well-paid work out of London and the south, understanding what the Brexit vote really meant.

• Polly Toynbee is a Guardian columnist

What will win is shipping identified leave voters to the british antarctic territory

More chance of that than a Labour campaign promising to change the country with a shift of power, wealth and well-paid work out of London

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here's the whole of the table:
View attachment 159360

In order of bothered-ness about a relative marrying a leave voter:

Intend to vote Lib dem: 50% bothered
Voted remain: 37% bothered
2017 Lib dem voters: 33% bothered
Intend to vote Labour: 32% bothered
2017 Labour voters: 32% bothered
18-24 yr olds: 32% bothered

Looking at class:

ABC1: 24% bothered
C2DE: 14% bothered

It's a bit weird to read these results as saying that much tbh. The headline figures are that only 1 out of 10 leave voters said they'd mind even a little, while just 1 in 5 remain voters said they'd mind even a little. It's a non-issue for a large majority of people. The results from half a dozen libdem voters in the sample don't mean much.

 

[quiet guy]

Just seen this brilliant post from Mike Harding to Boris Johnson.



To Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson AKA Bojo The Clown C.O. The Circus. Westminster. London. England. Europe.

Dear Bojo,
I hope this finds you well.

The moppet you see here is a pretty poor model of you made of fly-tying beeswax into which I am sticking thorns. This is called “magick” and it’s supposed to give you aches and pains and stuff. The trouble is that, to work, it has to contain some of your hair or a toenail or as a last resort some belly button fluff. So far I have been unable to obtain these items. Sadly.

You won’t have heard of me because I didn’t go to Eton or Oxford, I wasn’t a member of the Bullingdon Club, I didn’t burn £50 notes under the noses of the destitute, and I didn’t smash up restaurants and then pay for the repairs with mummy and daddy’s money. You won’t know me because I am one of the “Great Unwashed” the “Plebs” who live North of your Westminster bubble.

The reason I’m writing to you is simple. I read some of your pieces in the Telegraph recently from way back when you were their Brussels correspondent – you’ll remember those days – lots of boozy lunches followed by you hammering copy out into cyberspace. Easy peasy job, lots of perks. And to earn all that money you told lots of lies.
This is how you describe it…
“I was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect – and it really gave me this, I suppose, rather weird sense of power,”

Ah, what japes you had Bojo, almost as funny as when you offered to procure a hit man to batter somebody who had troubled your friend Darius Guppy.

And here’s some of the lies/rocks you chucked over the garden wall:
“Brussels recruits sniffers to ensure that Euro–manure smells the same”
“Threat to British pink sausages”
“Snails are fish, says EU”.
You wrote total bollocks about straight bananas and conkers being banned from school playgrounds; about plans to standardise condom sizes and plans to ban prawn cocktail flavour crisps.
In fact you got paid incredibly well, and lunched even better by sending total bollocks to London for 5 yrs. It was a drip-feed of EU hate and it eventually worm its way into the nation’s psyche.

You never once mentioned the EU’s great achievements – cementing peace for 70 yrs, uniting the continent, creating the world’s largest single market, enabling its citizens to travel and live anywhere they choose, busting monopolies, improving the environment, sharing research into things like cancer and dementia, sending thousands of doctors and nurses and teachers here. Not one single mention.
You allowed the lies about our laws, money and borders to fester and stink because it was more fun that way.
Laws – We voted for 95% of all EU laws. Of the other 5% we abstained on 3% and lost 2%.
Money – We never entered the Euro so always had control of our money. The money we paid the EU was returned over and again in benefits and in total amounted to less each year than we spend on Northern Ireland.
Our borders – We could return anybody from the EU after 3 months if they had no means of subsistence or abode. We chose not to enact this ruling.
Never mentioned that did you Bojo? Not japish enough? Couldn’t get it on the clown car? But there was room for “£350 Million.”

I am surprised that there is not, in Brussels, a statue of you with the legend “Bollocksmeister” on it. The statue of course would need to be made out of solid Home Counties, Bullingdon Club Manure.

I remember you getting elected for parliament and how you said “There’s too much sense of entitlement in this country.” That made me smile. A bit rich coming from a privately educated chap who was given a job on the Times because of family connections and who (as most old Etonians do) sees himself as entitled to rule over the rest of us. The “Entitlement” you were talking about of course was entitlement to a minimum wage, sickness and unemployment benefit and a reasonable pension; the entitlement, in other words, to a decent life and some dignity towards the end. (The French state pension, BTW, is €1200 – how does that compare with ours?)

I checked up on your record as an administrator and man of ideas. Gosh! I am completely whelmed!
As Mayor of London you promised to totally eradicate rough sleeping by 2012; it doubled under your leadership. Your 2008 manifesto promised there would be manned ticket offices at every station; you closed all of London's ticket offices. You aimed to reduce transport fares; they increased by 4.2 per cent. You trashed the London Fire Service, bought water canons to subdue the population of the city you governed (they were sold for scrap at a massive loss) and managed to spend £46 million on a bridge that was never built. Where did that money go Bojo? To funding a new clown school or into the pockets of your pals, the consultants?
But hey – what fun – what japes along the road eh?
And then May, to get you off her manor, made you Foreign Secretary. I realised then that Satire is dead. Even Swift could not have invented such a scenario. You said that Muslim women wearing the veil look like bank robbers and letterboxes; black children are “piccaninnies” and all black people have “watermelon smiles” I thought all this was bad enough – but then you went on to say that Libya would be a good tourist destination, “once they have cleared all the dead bodies off the streets.”
Whilst Editor of The Spectator, you published an article which stated, “Orientals … have larger brains and higher IQ scores. Blacks are at the other pole.”
Good basic stance for a Foreign Sec. at the time of Disraeli – doesn’t quite cut it now.
And you are some writer Bojo. I remember during the Ref campaign you wrote two pieces, one saying the EU was a heap of ordure and the other saying it was le best thing aprés le pain sliced. You couldn’t make up your mind which article best served, “le project Boris” but plumped for the leave one since you thought Leave would lose but that you would be seen as its champion and would therefore get David Macaroon’s job once he’d buggered off to his shepherds’ hut.
The sight of your face and Michael Gove’s face when you found you had won that Brexit morning was something to behold. You hadn’t a feckin’ clue what to do next and, if I remember rightly buggered off into hiding for several days.
As Mrs Gove said, “You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.”
And how you worked at that Brexit job – the greatest con since The Trojan Horse – convincing the population that all the problems caused by the Thatcher-led, Tory destruction of our industries, and the savage cuts of Austerity were the fault of the EU. Pure brilliant I must admit. And the way you sold those sunlit uplands that would lead us to Empire2 – Majestic.
So here we are now Bojo, in the Brexit circus ring, you in your clown car racing round still throwing rocks over the wall telling people they can have their cake and eat it, and that the Irish tail is wagging the UK dog. Ah Bojo, did you ever read the stories of the Irish Famine? How food was leaving Ireland under armed guard as starving people died in the ditches, the green foam of the grass that was their last meal flecking their mouths? One million dead - England's own Holocaust? Did you ever count the dead of The Troubles? Do you even know that the first murder of those terrible years was that of an official at a border post? No I thought not. Not enough of a jape for you.
I awoke last night in a bit of a lather because I’d had a nightmare in which I was trying to describe you to a visitor from Mars. Assuming the Martian had read the Greyfriar’s books the closest I came was, “Flashman in the shape of the Fat Owl of the Remove.” all the bumble and chortle of Billy Bunter but behind the mask, an all-devouring ego on legs, what William Golding in his novel, Pincher Martin describes thus… “This painted bastard here takes anything he can lay his hands on.... He was born with his mouth and his flies open and both hands out to grab. He’s a cosmic case of the bugger who gets his penny and someone else’s bun.”
Or in your case, “cake and eat it.”
So Bojo, you bumble malevolently on, always on the look out for Number One and quite prepared to destroy the country in the process – because, well, you know, it’s all a bit of a jape isn’t it?
I’ve just got an email from your barber. He’s prepared to send me some of your hair in exchange for tickets to my next show. It’s a deal. The hair is in a jiffy bag on its way North. So, as from tomorrow, you may notice a few twinges and niggly pains, then after a few days….well…… “Lorks! Crikey! Lumme! I say you chaps! Looks like my tadger’s fallen orf!”

Yours
Michael Christopher Damien Makepiece Harding.
Yorkshire
England
Europe
The World
The Cosmos
Wherever.

 

[LDC]

There was a load of shit in the Guardian in the ref campaign saying almost explicitly you need to be thick racist and working class to vote leave

Not only The Guardian. I lost respect for a number of friends who pretty much said the same, albeit sometimes slightly cloaked.