Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Pickman's model]

Agreed. She really has nowhere to go but tragedy and farce and eventual resignation. Uncharted waters indeed. LLetsa would fucking love this.

He'd be hiding his glee behind his miserablist facade

 

[butchersapron]

Thank fuck.

There has not been a single poll that's not hostile to the idea of a 2nd ref. Not even amongst remainers. It's why this lot focusing on 2nd ref or citizens assembly are so miles out of touch. It's a perfect example of disconnect and it's been going on since that AV vote. (The public demonstration of it i mean, not the disconnect).

 

[Pickman's model]

What's the collective noun for that lot?

Wankers

 

[TopCat]

There has not been a single poll that's not hostile to the idea of a 2nd ref. Not even amongst remainers. It's why this lot focusing on 2nd ref or citizens assembly are so miles out of touch. It's a perfect example of disconnect and it's been going on since that AV vote. (The public demonstration of it i mean, not the disconnect).

They exist in a class bubble.

 

[TopCat]

Wankers

Can do better 5/10.

 

[butchersapron]

What's the collective noun for that lot?

Them. They. Don't give them nothing. Don't tell them nothing.

 

[TopCat]

Them. They. Don't give them nothing. Don't tell them nothing.

Less chance to frame us?

 

[Pickman's model]

What's the collective noun for that lot?

A disappointment

 

[butchersapron]

Less chance to frame us?

Less chance of them doing it for sure.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm afraid this is nothing more than post hoc rationalisations of feelings. Because you feel that Remain is ("must be") the 'progressive' choice, and since you understand Tories as being not progressive, therefore Tories can't be Remain. But the reason the conclusion is incorrect is that both the first and second premises are faulty.

You strongly believe Remain to be the Progressive choice, but you are not allowing all the evidence against Remain. You merely feel that it is the internationalist choice, therefore it cannot be anything but progressive. This despite knowing about Fortress Europe, about the neoliberal nature of the EU rules, about the treatment of Greece and the periphery (Portugal etc), and despite knowing that Remain was led by a Tory prime minister and chancellor. But this must be black and white, right? You have to choose Remain or Leave, and the decision has to be clear cut...doesn't it? One is the left choice and the other the rightwing choice. (Well, how about, no: it isn't that simple).

Still on premise one: you are not clearly defining "progressive". Remember, the Tories under Cameron passed the Same Sex Couples Act, and so on. Indeed, neoliberalism successfully co-opted many of the individualist concerns of identity politics. So "progressive" ideals can't be seen simply in left and right shorthand any more, as far as mainstream UK parties are concerned. They are no longer a reliable marker of leftness.

Which leads us to the problem with premise two: that the Tories aren't "progressive". Well, we already know that we haven't defined that well enough to exclude Tory policies. So it can't be used to rule out Toryness. And secondly, it misses what is the primary concern of the Tory party under Cameron and Osborne: the neoliberal project. Look at who else supported Remain - the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce, the financial institutions, and so on. The neoliberal project, in other words.

Which means that your feeling that Tories couldn't have been Remain is based on a number of errors, failures to properly define terms, and a lack of structural analysis. But mainly it was just a feeling that you couldn't possibly feel this strongly about something that Tories also cared about.

What you should be watching now, however, is the way that the neoliberal project copes with coming to an accommodation with Brexit. That's what is at the root of the Tories' turmoil at the moment.

Superb post. Should be pinned onto the head of every ‘socialist’ who continues to swallow the guff of the remainers

 

[Raheem]

But it doesn't at all. The MP numbers are not there. It's there to show that.

The numbers are not there to get it through as a bankbench amendment, but what Corbyn seems to be proposing is a government bill backed by the Labour leadership (he would have to back it, since he is calling for it). That would stand a very good chance, surely, if May were to go for it.

 

[butchersapron]

No he isn't.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think a lot of remain Tories are lying about being remainers (including Cameron). I think if we leave the EU we’ll be toast economically. Yes, its full of neo-liberal technocrats but you can’t reform anything from outside the tent.

You obviously didn't notice the referendum was called because the tories were divided over the issue of Europe and Cameron wanted to resolve the issue

 

[Pickman's model]

The numbers are not there to get it through as a bankbench amendment, but what Corbyn seems to be proposing is a government bill backed by the Labour leadership (he would have to back it, since he is calling for it). That would stand a very good chance, surely, if May were to go for it.

Yeh if things were entirely different you mean

 

[Puddy_Tat]

You obviously didn't notice the referendum was called because the tories were divided over the issue of Europe and Cameron wanted to resolve the issue

maybe - although it's being reported today that ham-face never expected the referendum to happen because he expected the limp dems to veto it. report in the 'i' here

 

[Raheem]

Yeh if things were entirely different you mean

Yeah, she's not going to go for it, but that's just another reason why interpreting it as an attempt to kill a public vote can't be correct.

 

[Raheem]

No he isn't.

He is according to the article. Maybe you know something additional.

 

[butchersapron]

He is according to the article. Maybe you know something additional.

As if that would be possible eh raheem? As if.

 

[Ming]

You obviously didn't notice the referendum was called because the tories were divided over the issue of Europe and Cameron wanted to resolve the issue

This is going to sound really bad but in i go....I still think its a ruse. My reasoning is Tories lie, are motivated by wealth and power not the well being of fellow citizens and a no-deal Brexit being the biggest opportunity for them (for everything...money, asset grabs on the public sphere, etc) ever. When I moved from ‘analyse what they say’ to ‘don’t believe a word they say’ was over the Health and Social Care Act 2012. They put the legislation in place to sell off the NHS and then admitted lying about it. No one saw that coming that i’m aware off. I think a no-deal Brexit is the same. I know it’s an impossible position to defend but lets see what the outcome is. And I’ve got 20 quid on it.

 

[butchersapron]

This is going to sound really bad but in i go....I still think its a ruse. My reasoning is Tories lie, are motivated by wealth and power not the well being of fellow citizens and a no-deal Brexit being the biggest opportunity for them (for everything...money, asset grabs on the public sphere, etc) ever. When I moved from ‘analyse what they say’ to ‘don’t believe a word they say’ was over the Health and Social Care Act 2012. They put the legislation in place to sell off the NHS and then admitted lying about it. No one saw that coming that i’m aware off. I think a no-deal Brexit is the same. I know it’s an impossible position to defend but lets see what the outcome is. And I’ve got 20 quid on it.

No one minds views like that as long as you line out some reasoning. This is just saying that tories are bad and the thing you like is good. The problem is when the thing you like is how the tories exercise their evil. Quite openly, right in front of you.

Neoliberalism transformed into a binding legal obligation

Why tories support the EU.

 

[two sheds]

the Health and Social Care Act 2012. They put the legislation in place to sell off the NHS and then admitted lying about it. No one saw that coming that i’m aware off.

Not many people would have seen it coming that they'd admit to lying about it. Fairly clear at the time they were going to do it as I recall.

I agree with you though. I got an email from MP Sarah Newton around that time telling me the NHS wasn't being privatized based on some World Bank (or something) definition of 'privatization'. Tells you there's no use writing to her again.

 

[butchersapron]

Every single left winger had been shouting generally that they would attack the NHS and those with more specific knowledge wrote millions of words on how and why. Thousands of people were out every weekend informing warning and supporting. This is utter guff ming.

 

[Ming]

No one minds views like that as long as you line out some reasoning. This is just saying that tories are bad and the thing you like is good. The problem is when the thing you like is how the tories exercise their evil. Quite openly, right in front of you.

Well it’s impossible to prove that Cameron and a lot of other ‘Remainer’ Tories were secretly for a Brexit (as i believe) hence the shit ineffective campaigning. But they have told equally big whoppers in the past (NHS). I think the older Tories voting for closer links to Europe back in the past were a different breed. Maybe a lot less venal. And in relation to some progressive legislation Cameron and his crew introduced...just grabbing votes (like his green credentials...he was reported as saying ‘now drop the green crap’ after they were elected). I’m progressive and i remember how clause 28 affected a friend of mine (not well).

 

[butchersapron]

Well it’s impossible to prove that Cameron and a lot of other ‘Remainer’ Tories were secretly for a Brexit (as i believe) hence the shit ineffective campaigning. But they have told equally big whoppers in the past (NHS). I think the older Tories voting for closer links to Europe back in the past were a different breed. Maybe a lot less venal. And in relation to some progressive legislation Cameron and his crew introduced...just grabbing votes (like his green credentials...he was reported as saying ‘now drop the green crap’ after they were elected). I’m progressive and i remember how clause 28 affected a friend of mine (not well).

You haven't even made an effort. You've just talked about tories and crap like a school intrigue. Brexit is about class war, about how states relate to wider global capital dynamics, how local parties relate to that in turn. Not some crap about never trusting tories.

 

[TruXta]

This is going to sound really bad but in i go....I still think its a ruse. My reasoning is Tories lie, are motivated by wealth and power not the well being of fellow citizens and a no-deal Brexit being the biggest opportunity for them (for everything...money, asset grabs on the public sphere, etc) ever. When I moved from ‘analyse what they say’ to ‘don’t believe a word they say’ was over the Health and Social Care Act 2012. They put the legislation in place to sell off the NHS and then admitted lying about it. No one saw that coming that i’m aware off. I think a no-deal Brexit is the same. I know it’s an impossible position to defend but lets see what the outcome is. And I’ve got 20 quid on it.

Funnily enough they're starting to make noises about rowing back on parts of that as even they realise they've fucked things up badly.

 

[Ming]

Every single left winger had been shouting generally that they would attack the NHS and those with more specific knowledge wrote millions of words on how and why. Thousands of people were out every weekend informing warning and supporting. This is utter guff ming.

Did you watch the Portillo clip i posted? He admits they’d never have been elected if they’d admitted what they were up to. Cameron said specifically ‘no top down reorganization on my watch’. I won’t argue with over how many people on the left saw it coming (i didn’t...i believed him).

 

[butchersapron]

Did you watch the Portillo clip i posted? He admits they’d never have been elected if they’d admitted what they were up to. Cameron said specifically ‘no top down reorganization on my watch’. I won’t argue with over how many people on the left saw it coming (i didn’t...i believed him).

Of course i didn't watch your youtube clip. You sound like a loon with no experience of what happened before the 2010 election. The whole point of the left focus was a tory attack on the NHS. That only you managed to foresee.

 

[Ming]

You haven't even made an effort. You've just talked about tories and crap like a school intrigue. Brexit is about class war, about how states relate to wider global capital dynamics, how local parties relate to that in turn. Not some crap about never trusting tories.

That’s true. It is class war, etc. And that makes me not trust Tories. I’m bailing on this. But i will pay my bet if i’m wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

Did you watch the Portillo clip i posted? He admits they’d never have been elected if they’d admitted what they were up to!

They would never have been elected if they’d admitted what they were up to.

He knows.

Admits

they’d never have been elected if they’d admitted what they were up to

admitted

up to

And our next guest...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

maybe - although it's being reported today that ham-face never expected the referendum to happen because he expected the limp dems to veto it. report in the 'i' here

Makes complete sense tbh. Always thought the coalition suited the Cameron/Osborne wing of the Tory party perfectly, better than being without them. Chuck a few socially liberal bones over things they don't give two shits about either way, and use the libdems as cover for their agenda while at the same time keeping the tories in line.

Bit like US Republicans who bleat on about abortion. Last thing they want is to actually be able to ban abortion. Roe v Wade allows them to bluster about it without ever having to act on the bluster.