Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[pocketscience]

...

 

[pocketscience]

Uk was great to my parents when they showed up here 40+years ago and I don’t think they’d get residency now either of them, that’s not EUs fault it’s domestic changes here, hardening attitudes to immigrants.
I don’t think the eu are to blame for people’s anxiety about whether or not they’ll be allowed to stay here after Brexit either , Nobody wants all those ageing brits living in spain to come home after all.

Wow. Your parents were able to settle in the UK before the Eu even existed. Maybe the UK should leave the Eu so that others can settle in the uk too.

 

[Happy Larry]

We got two arguments presented, two sides of the right, one the more overtly xenophobic

What utter tripe. Firstly, both parties pushed for the remain vote. Secondly, just because so many people in Britain believe that immigration into the country has been excessive and has reduced the level of housing and jobs etc for those already here, doesn't make them xenophobic.

 

[mauvais]

Buggered if I know where you are going with this? the whole idea of leaving the EU is to get back control of our National decision making, esp in where our taxes are spent.
I'm very much in favour of helping out others who are worse off than us, but we should decide on our priorities.

You don't get this control with most spending at this level. For example, Scotland currently has higher public expenditure than it collects from the Scottish in tax revenue, so English taxpayer money is flowing there, and yet much of the spending decisions are devolved to the Scottish parliament, quite rightly. All you can do about it is attempt to vote out the entire system. As you can and presumably have with the EU.

But if you were going to complain about it on the basis of the money, rather than say, 'who gives a fuck about Scotland', then you'd probably have some kind of tangible complaint to share about why the money was undeserved or misspent.

So where this is going, not exactly concealed, is poking at your attitude to redistribution. Basically, on what's presented so far, I don't believe you. I think you're either throwing a principle that you're in favour of under the bus in exchange for a stick with which to beat the EU, when countless others are available for free, or, you have no actual interest in redistribution of funds in the first place, at least outside British borders. I wouldn't like to guess which. I think this not because of you per se but because it's a common trope when it comes to the subject of giving away money - e.g. 'charity starts at home' as a hapless cover for no charity at all.

 

[bimble]

Wow. Your parents were able to settle in the UK before the Eu even existed. Maybe the UK should leave the Eu so that others can settle in the uk too.

Good idea. Brexit, the obvious choice for those who hope immigrants will continue to come here and staff the NHS for us. Oh hang on.

 

[redsquirrel]

That's what you hope, that nurses and doctors from other countries (often less prosperous) leave the (often understaffed) health services of those countries and work in the NHS?

 

[bimble]

I was taking the piss out of pocketscience's idea that leaving the EU will lead to more people being able to settle here in the welcoming UK.. But now that you ask, yes, i'm selfish like that, I hope people do keep coming here to staff the NHS, i think we're short of some 40,000 nurses at the moment.

 

[redsquirrel]

Lovely, exploitation of workers and less prosperous countries as 'freedom of movement'.

 

[bimble]

Lovely, exploitation of workers and less prosperous countries as 'freedom of movement'.

Yes. I'm sure that they'll be really grateful for the show of concern for their welfare that is Brexit.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yeah that's it, if you oppose the forced migration and exploitation of workers and you must be a xenophobe. Pathetic.

And of course the EU had those lovely open borders, no paying of authoritarian governments millions of euros to set up camps. No racist attacks on Roma, forcing them to emigrate. No barbed wire fences and barriers set up by countries in the EU. Never happened.

 

[bimble]

I didn't say any of that though did i? Pocketscience said

Maybe the UK should leave the Eu so that others can settle in the uk too.

Which is it then, immigration good or immigration is exploitation?

 

[redsquirrel]

FFS, that's it. A reduction to a moronic binary choice. As I said, absolutely pathetic.

 

[alex_]

That's what you hope, that nurses and doctors from other countries (often less prosperous) leave the (often understaffed) health services of those countries and work in the NHS?

It’s a tricky one, it’s good for the individuals and it’s good for this country, but it’s not so good for the country they leave. maybe we should identify which country the best ones come from and fund nurses training there, formalise the arrangement.

Alex

 

[DotCommunist]

What utter tripe. Firstly, both parties pushed for the remain vote. Secondly, just because so many people in Britain believe that immigration into the country has been excessive and has reduced the level of housing and jobs etc for those already here, doesn't make them xenophobic.

Nobody cares what you think larry. Go back to looking at borderline videos on youtube

 

[redsquirrel]

Or maybe the government could stop attacking the pay and working conditions of nurses and more people would be willing to go/stay in the profession.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The cause of the skills shortage in this country is short termism that started in the 80s. Prior to that building companies & factories offered apprenticeships with day release college & city&guild exams. There were also government training centres as well that taught skills to older people. A friend now in his 60s who was a complete waster in his teens & early 20s decided to sort himself out & did a government training course in plumbing which has earnt him a good living since. That could not happen now. The centres have all closed.

The apprenticeship scheme we have now was intially paid for by taxpayers but now employers are expected to pay apprenticeship levy the level of apprenticeships has dropped dramatically. Companies having to pay to train their own workers? Perish the though eh? The apprenticeships are bollocks anyway, demeaning the meaning of the word. An apprenticeship is a 4yr course to learn a skilled trade not being taught to work in a shop.

 

[Yossarian]

Yeah that's it, if you oppose the forced migration and exploitation of workers and you must be a xenophobe. Pathetic.

Not sure if all that many foreign workers in the NHS would consider themselves to be "forced migrants," tbf. The cumulative effect on some countries is indeed terrible - especially the Philippines, where they are seeing doctors retrain as nurses to get jobs overseas - but I think these workers generally see themselves as using their skills to move to a more prosperous country for a better life for themselves and their children, a situation not wildly different from that of many British people moving to Australia, for example.

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought most NHS migrant workers were from outside of the EU anyway,

 

[redsquirrel]

Not sure if all that many foreign workers in the NHS would consider themselves to be "forced migrants," tbf. The cumulative effect on some countries is indeed terrible - especially the Philippines, where they are seeing doctors retrain as nurses to get jobs overseas - but I think these workers generally see themselves as using their skills to move to a more prosperous country for a better life for themselves and their children, a situation not wildly different from that of many British people moving to Australia, for example.

Many/most people would deny that they are being exploited by working but they are. Does the fact that many in the armed forces would say that they have chosen to enlist because they want to protect their country mean that economic conscription doesn't exist?

To ignore the material conditions that drive migration is absurd. This is why the reduction of freedom of movement (or other 'freedoms') to the merely legal domain is so dangerous.

 

[danny la rouge]

You may need to spell out why you think this is especially relevant to the thread.

It's a useful primer on the global economic consensus that popped up in my feedly, and it made me think of the last few pages on here.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yeah that's it, if you oppose the forced migration and exploitation of workers and you must be a xenophobe. Pathetic.

And of course the EU had those lovely open borders, no paying of authoritarian governments millions of euros to set up camps. No racist attacks on Roma, forcing them to emigrate. No barbed wire fences and barriers set up by countries in the EU. Never happened.

This is it, isn't it? The false dichotomy that's presented by the Remain media. It's a polarisation into Good and Bad that doesn't bear scrutiny.

 

[DotCommunist]

We’re being hurt by the fixation on economic growth at all costs | Larry Elliott
heh, just what was being discussed yesterday around GDP:

 

[kabbes]

We’re being hurt by the fixation on economic growth at all costs | Larry Elliott
heh, just what was being discussed yesterday around GDP:

The Guardian follow my posts and just use them as article fodder. The obvious conclusion.

 

[DotCommunist]

The Guardian follow my posts and just use them as article fodder. The obvious conclusion.

I've never seen you and Larry Elliot in the same room. #justsayin

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The Guardian follow my posts and just use them as article fodder. The obvious conclusion.

Presumably why the Guardian is going down the pan? They nick their content from lefty internet forums.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The cause of the skills shortage in this country is short termism that started in the 80s. Prior to that building companies & factories offered apprenticeships with day release college & city&guild exams. There were also government training centres as well that taught skills to older people. A friend now in his 60s who was a complete waster in his teens & early 20s decided to sort himself out & did a government training course in plumbing which has earnt him a good living since. That could not happen now. The centres have all closed.

The apprenticeship scheme we have now was intially paid for by taxpayers but now employers are expected to pay apprenticeship levy the level of apprenticeships has dropped dramatically. Companies having to pay to train their own workers? Perish the though eh? The apprenticeships are bollocks anyway, demeaning the meaning of the word. An apprenticeship is a 4yr course to learn a skilled trade not being taught to work in a shop.

You don't think that the Labour government setting pay rates for apprentices, had something to do with the loss of apprenticeships? When a final year apprentice was being paid 80% of a journeyman's wage, it became a bit much. The company that my brother in law was apprenticed to took in two apprentices a year up until that point. My brother in law was their last apprentice.

 

[bimble]

Largest annual fall in net migration since records began was announced today, and we’ve not even brexited yet.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Largest annual fall in net migration since records began was announced today, and we’ve not even brexited yet.

When I was in hospital recently, most of the staff came from abroad.

The fuckwitted idea of doing away with bursaries for student nurses, and making them pay tuition fees, will deter a lot of people from taking up nursing.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

You don't think that the Labour government setting pay rates for apprentices, had something to do with the loss of apprenticeships? When a final year apprentice was being paid 80% of a journeyman's wage, it became a bit much. The company that my brother in law was apprenticed to took in two apprentices a year up until that point. My brother in law was their last apprentice.

I think point is why should it be necessary for there to be any government intervention in companies training their staff? For yrs after around the 80s when firms stopped training their staff they were to be able to advertise for experienced staff & recruit them. This was because of the massive unemployment in the 80s. The lament of the unemployed was always “how can I get any experience if nobody will train me?”

Obviously the lack of training being offered would eventually come back to bite them on the bum & we now have a skills shortage. Why should paying people properly while they are being trained be any issue at all?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Not sure if all that many foreign workers in the NHS would consider themselves to be "forced migrants," tbf. The cumulative effect on some countries is indeed terrible - especially the Philippines, where they are seeing doctors retrain as nurses to get jobs overseas - but I think these workers generally see themselves as using their skills to move to a more prosperous country for a better life for themselves and their children, a situation not wildly different from that of many British people moving to Australia, for example.

Do you have a source for that? Doctors are more in demand across the world than nurses.