Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[coley]

I am a qualified nurse, and completely agree that it should not be a degree course. Our training comprised time on the wards, and time in the school of nursing. Most of the time was spent on the wards. That gives you the ability to spot immediately, the patient who is starting to deteriorate.

My mate Gary, who is still working as a nurse for the army, was walking along behind a 'degree' nurse when a patient asked her for a urine bottle. The 'degree' replied 'I'll get someone else, I didn't go to university to hand out urine bottles'. Gary's comment to her got her to fetch the urine bottle, and him an interview with the boss re 'tone and manner'.

Some professions obviously reqire "degree level education' but many do not, those that do not, are the ones intrerfacing the public, Nursing, the police, (politicians?) etc
You start at the bottom and based on intelligence and skills you rise to the top, SWMBOd is a good example (in the nursing arena)
Ignoring this basic fact is why 'labour' is so out of touch with Joe Soap.
But this is a digression from the topic.

 

[coley]

Tusk:-

“We agreed today that before proposing guidelines on transition and future relations I will consult the Taoiseach on [whether or not] the UK offer is sufficient for the Irish Government.

“Let me say very clearly if the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland it will be unacceptable for the EU,” he said.

Nice bit of passing the blame

 

[kabbes]

Lots of Irish people on a R4 vox pop this evening saying Britain was betraying them by leaving the EU, and basically acting like the British people determining their own future with respect to their own status in the EU was nothing but a slight to the Irish. Talk about self-absorbed. Their attitude was basically that Britain should stay in the EU because that was better for Ireland.

 

[coley]

what part of "net beneficiary" do you not understand?

Mmm, feeling the need to be a bit sarky are we bonnie lad/person?
Just the extent of our net loss, most agree we pay more in than we get out,
But amounts differ considerably depending on what equation (or news source) you look at, most 'remain' supporters (the BBC esp) will use every trick in the book to narrow down the difference between recipient and provider, but most agree we are a 'net contributer' rather than a 'net recipient'
But wheyup, what's a few billions atween 'friends'

 

[coley]

Lots of Irish people on a R4 vox pop this evening saying Britain was betraying them by leaving the EU, and basically acting like the British people determining their own future with respect to their own status in the EU was nothing but a slight to the Irish. Talk about self-absorbed. Their attitude was basically that Britain should stay in the EU because that was better for Ireland.

Eh? You sound surprised!? that's the whole tack of the EU, we 'perfidious Albion' are putting the whole EU dream in jeopardy by pursuing our 'national interest'
Let's not remember that the original 'steel and coal commission' was set up to benefit two particular players

 

[sealion]

The predicted mass exodus from the city of London is looking less likely.
City firms on hiring spree

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

The predicted mass exodus from the city of London is looking less likely.
City firms on hiring spree

According to Hays, and data from *peers over glasses* Adzuna. OK

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lots of Irish people on a R4 vox pop this evening saying Britain was betraying them by leaving the EU, and basically acting like the British people determining their own future with respect to their own status in the EU was nothing but a slight to the Irish. Talk about self-absorbed. Their attitude was basically that Britain should stay in the EU because that was better for Ireland.

The British people determining their own future? Is that what this process is?

From what I remember, the border issue wasn't much of an issue during the campaign other than in Northern Ireland, where there was a majority remain, including a very large Nationalist remain. There were also assurances from leave campaigners that the border would remain open. If that turns out not to be true, who is held accountable for the failure? I think people in Northern Ireland who voted remain and didn't believe the lie that there would be no border issue have every right to be angry about all of this right now. They're being thrown under a bus. People in the south have every right to be peeved as well if their movement across the island of Ireland is to be restricted by a vote they weren't allowed to take part in. Why shouldn't they be? It's a pretty narrow nationalist argument to contend otherwise.

Here's Arlene Foster, leader of the only NI party that campaigned for leave, just after the referendum result.

We campaigned to leave the EU. This is the democratic decision of the people of the UK. This is a UK-wide decision and every vote is equal within the UK. I am proud of the fact that this decision was taken by the people.

Brexit means many things to many people. It's very clear what it means to Foster and her mad bunch of hateful bigots.

 

[Raheem]

They're being thrown under a bus. People in the south have every right to be peeved

Except, so far, they're not being thrown under a bus, because HMG is in no position. They do have a right to be peeved but, more to the point, they have a right to stand up for themselves.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Except, so far, they're not being thrown under a bus, because HMG is in no position. They do have a right to be peeved but, more to the point, they have a right to stand up for themselves.

There's an assumption among some leave people that there is a way to do 'hard' brexit that doesn't put the gfa in jeopardy. I see no reason why there has to be one tbh. I don't see one and I've not heard anyone suggest one yet.

 

[kabbes]

I think people in Northern Ireland who voted remain and didn't believe the lie that there would be no border issue have every right to be angry about all of this right now. They're being thrown under a bus.

It wasn’t the people of NI being interviewed, nor is it the people of NI that I am talking about.

People in the south have every right to be peeved as well if their movement across the island of Ireland is to be restricted by a vote they weren't allowed to take part in. Why shouldn't they be? It's a pretty narrow nationalist argument to contend otherwis.

People in the south can be as peeved as they like with the prospect of Brexit, but that is different to being actively offended that the people of Britain aren’t putting their convenience first when making decisions. I don’t feel that I somehow have the right for the French to arrange their affairs to benefit me.

 

[SpookyFrank]

People in the south can be as peeved as they like with the prospect of Brexit, but that is different to being actively offended that the people of Britain aren’t putting their convenience first when making decisions. I don’t feel that I somehow have the right for the French to arrange their affairs to benefit me.

You can't think of a reason why relations with Ireland are fundamentally different to those with France?

 

[kabbes]

You can't think of a reason why relations with Ireland are fundamentally different to those with France?

It doesn’t matter. A sovereign nation shouldn’t expect that another sovereign nation will arrange its own governance in any way other than those which its citizens find most appealing.

 

[bimble]

i don't know where to put this but Jacob Rees-Mogg met Steve Bannon to discuss US-UK politics I just hope that those who predict a Labour victory soon are correct, and that brexit won't all be decided by people like the Mogg, or the 'economic nationalism' of his new friends.

 

[sleaterkinney]

As you say, there are 'countless sticks with which to beat the EU with' but the one that annoys me most is the perception that the EU actually funds projects within the U.K. ...it doesn't... it only redistributes money that we have paid into the EU budget.
It does not provide extra funding, it give us a proportion of the money we have already paid, back to the UK but only into projects that the EU decides are 'worthy'
The NHS bus was, as most would agree, a clumsy attempt to highlight this point.
I would be more than happy to see a UK based organisation deciding on the 'redistribution' of the nations wealth.
Other, than a Tory govt that is

It's worth nothing that the portion of UK govt spending that goes to the EU is about 1%....

 

[Winot]

On the Irish border issue, this sums it up:

 

[Winot]

It doesn’t matter. A sovereign nation shouldn’t expect that another sovereign nation will arrange its own governance in any way other than those which its citizens find most appealing.

True for both RoI and UK.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

i don't know where to put this but Jacob Rees-Mogg met Steve Bannon to discuss US-UK politics I just hope that those who predict a Labour victory soon are correct, and that brexit won't all be decided by people like the Mogg, or the 'economic nationalism' of his new friends.

I can't help but notice we're seeing the Mogg on the Telly pontificating about various things a lot recently, there are nearly 300 Tory backbenchers but it's always him, is this some plan to get us used to seeing him?

 

[SpookyFrank]

It doesn’t matter. A sovereign nation shouldn’t expect that another sovereign nation will arrange its own governance in any way other than those which its citizens find most appealing.

Well we've certainly got form for arranging matters to our own benefit as regards the fate of the Irish people.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I can't help but notice we're seeing the Mogg on the Telly pontificating about various things a lot recently, there are nearly 300 Tory backbenchers but it's always him, is this some plan to get us used to seeing him?

There are undoubtedly forces in the BBC who have a vested interest in promoting brand Mogg, as there were with Johnson back when he was a nonentity.

 

[SpookyFrank]

On the Irish border issue, this sums it up:

I'm inclined to agree. The only other alternative anyone has come up with is a hard border made to look like it isn't a hard border, which is neither feasible nor an actual solution to the problem.

 

[kabbes]

True for both RoI and UK.

Absolutely. And when the ROI veto further Brexit discussions due to the insoluble border question, I for one won’t be resentful of the citizens of the ROI for that decision.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It doesn’t matter. A sovereign nation shouldn’t expect that another sovereign nation will arrange its own governance in any way other than those which its citizens find most appealing.

Sorry which world is this that you're talking about? You're essentialising nations here, divorcing them from their history and the reason they exist as they do. This is nationalist politics you're doing here. It really stinks.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Surely the solution has already been mooted on this thread? We are leaving THE customs union, nothing to stop us creating A customs union. Our standards are as the EU requires, cos we've been in the EU for 40 years, probably better in fact as we seem to be the country that complies most rigorously with EU diktat. So a two tier union, stuff we import/export that doesn't meet EU regulations we don't send to the EU.

 

[kabbes]

Sorry which world is this that you're talking about? You're essentialising nations here, divorcing them from their history and the reason they exist as they do. This is nationalist politics you're doing here. It really stinks.

There are shades of grey and fuzzy boundaries, alright. But wherever the line is, it lies a long way behind the point at which citizens of the ROI feel they have the right to tell citizens of the UK that they have to remain in the EU because it benefits the ROI for them to do so.

It wasn’t really the border, incidentally, that the vox pop interviewees were incensed about. It was actually largely about ease of trade exports for the ROI.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely the solution has already been mooted on this thread? We are leaving THE customs union, nothing to stop us creating A customs union. Our standards are as the EU requires, cos we've been in the EU for 40 years, probably better in fact as we seem to be the country that complies most rigorously with EU diktat. So a two tier union, stuff we import/export that doesn't meet EU regulations we don't send to the EU.

David Davis's vision. Sell freely to the EU at EU standards then undercut it with exports elsewhere as you race to the bottom. There is an obvious flaw to that, aside from the fact that it is something all workers should oppose.

 

[Winot]

Surely the solution has already been mooted on this thread? We are leaving THE customs union, nothing to stop us creating A customs union. Our standards are as the EU requires, cos we've been in the EU for 40 years, probably better in fact as we seem to be the country that complies most rigorously with EU diktat. So a two tier union, stuff we import/export that doesn't meet EU regulations we don't send to the EU.

Isn’t the problem that you will still need checks on the Irish border to stop the stuff that doesn’t meet EU regs getting in?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

There are undoubtedly forces in the BBC who have a vested interest in promoting brand Mogg, as there were with Johnson back when he was a nonentity.

I'll add a bucket to my Xmas wish list then

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Surely the solution has already been mooted on this thread? We are leaving THE customs union, nothing to stop us creating A customs union. Our standards are as the EU requires, cos we've been in the EU for 40 years, probably better in fact as we seem to be the country that complies most rigorously with EU diktat. So a two tier union, stuff we import/export that doesn't meet EU regulations we don't send to the EU.

There's also the problem that standards will drift apart over time, Assuming we can sign a trade deal with the madman on the other side of the pond, it might very well involve us taking the feared chlorinated chicken for example, the Irish and the EU will want to keep that out, over time we'll change or simply not keep up on lots of fronts such as environmental issues, quality standards or employment rights.
If we stay in the customs union then we have to keep up with these things, one of the big attraction of a hard Brexit to a lot of politicians is cutting back on what they see as red tape from the EU.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are shades of grey and fuzzy boundaries, alright. But wherever the line is, it lies a long way behind the point at which citizens of the ROI feel they have the right to tell citizens of the UK that they have to remain in the EU because it benefits the ROI for them to do so.

It wasn’t really the border, incidentally, that the vox pop interviewees were incensed about. It was actually largely about ease of trade exports for the ROI.

tbh whatever the reason given, there is a point here. Where was the consultation with ROI before the referendum from leave campaigners? It just highlights yet again that there was no plan for how to do it. The vote was empty in that sense - remain, well we knew what that meant; we still don't know what leave really means.

The history of this stuff matters. It is not a coincidence that the UK and Ireland joined the EU at the same time. There has been a common travel area since long before that. And before that, the UK ruled Ireland, in not a very nice way.