Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[krtek a houby]

Perhaps the British government is not keen on those who support the IRA, or anyone else who murders men, woman and children indiscriminately with car bombs, executions etc

There was fault on both sides, as is common with most conflicts.

I am no fan of the IRA but they came about for a reason. The fault lies much more with the British aparatus and the way Catholics were persecuted in NI/6counties.

 

[tim]

BS.
The "working class" in Ireland?
Every fucking person in Ireland up to joining the EU was working class....
Middle and upper were anglo irish ...
Anyone working in Ireland presently in regular jobs is working class.
Do you mean the people who are generationally supported by the social welfare system? That only fully came into being when we joined the EU.

Clearly this is not true well before the EU, and well before independence there was a substantial Catholic middle class.

The most famous piece of Irish twentieth century literature was written by a bourgeois Catholic and it's opening portrays well-to-do intelectual chaps horsing around in a very Catholic way

Episode 1 - Telemachus
STATELY, PLUMP BUCK MULLIGAN CAME FROM THE STAIRHEAD, bearing a bowl of lather on which a mirror and a razor lay crossed. A yellow dressing gown, ungirdled, was sustained gently-behind him by the mild morning air. He held the bowl aloft and intoned:


-- Introibo ad altare Dei.

Halted, he peered down the dark winding stairs and called up coarsely:

-- Come up, Kinch. Come up, you fearful jesuit.

Solemnly he came forward and mounted the round gunrest. He faced about and blessed gravely thrice the tower, the surrounding country and the awaking mountains. Then, catching sight of Stephen Dedalus, he bent towards him and made rapid crosses in the air, gurgling in his throat and shaking his head. Stephen Dedalus, displeased and sleepy, leaned his arms on the top of the staircase and looked coldly at the shaking gurgling face that blessed him, equine in its length, and at the light untonsured hair, grained and hued like pale oak.

Buck Mulligan peeped an instant under the mirror and then covered the bowl smartly.

And being a protestant was no guarantee that you wouldn't die of hunger during the famine

Shankill remembers Protestant and Catholic victims of Famine

The Protestant ascendancy went into slow decline from 1800 onwards not from the start of the 1970s

Protestant Ascendancy: Decline, 1800 to 1930 - Dictionary definition of Protestant Ascendancy: Decline, 1800 to 1930 | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Prefect example of what I've been talking about. All Irish in the same class, no capitalism in Ireland! You utter berk.

What he's saying if I've read him right & from what I e read of Irish history is that the workers were Irish but the bosses were anglo Irish ie brits

 

[Happy Larry]

Perhaps you haven't noticed which northern irish party is currently propping up Theresa May?

Quite. And with good reason, too.

 

[flypanam]

What he's saying if I've read him right & from what I e read of Irish history is that the workers were Irish but the bosses were anglo Irish ie brits

There is a sense of that but it's not true for instance William Martin Murphy, him of the Lock-out was an Irish boss.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Prefect example of what I've been talking about. All Irish in the same class, no capitalism in Ireland! You utter berk.

Lol....blinkered a bit are you?

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Clearly this is not true well before the EU, and well before independence there was a substantial Catholic middle class.

The most famous piece of Irish twentieth century literature was written by a bourgeois Catholic and it's opening portrays well-to-do intelectual chaps horsing around in a very Catholic way





And being a protestant was no guarantee that you wouldn't die of hunger during the famine

Shankill remembers Protestant and Catholic victims of Famine

The Protestant ascendancy went into slow decline from 1800 onwards not from the start of the 1970s

Protestant Ascendancy: Decline, 1800 to 1930 - Dictionary definition of Protestant Ascendancy: Decline, 1800 to 1930 | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary

There was not a substantial middle class catholic base outside the pale.
Most ordinary people living in the countryside and in slums in the city were what you might call working class although many had very little work and very little in the way of income. Theu lived in abject poverty.
Middle class catholics existed but they were few and far between. Most middle class were anglo irish or protestant.

Anyway look... I'm out of this debate.
Brexit is the business of Britain....
It is unfortunate that it will impact negatively on Ireland...but nothing new in the British establishmemt not giving a toss about it's neighbour.

Good luck to you all...Brexiteers and Remainers. It's not going to be an easy time for any of you.....or us.

 

[redsquirrel]

Are you saying they are unaware they're doing politics?

I'm saying that I don't believe that there is such a thing as "doing" politics. It's not something separate from people's lives

But ask most people and their concerns are about family, work, health and the price of a meal or a pint.

And how are these not political concerns? I know you don't believe in the class war but it's real and it affects us (and us it).

What you appear to be saying is that everything is political & yes you have a point. Unfortunately most folk would not see it that way. Do you seriously think that if you told most people that everything they do is political they would understand the point your are trying to make or agree with it if you explained it in detail?.

No I accept that many people do see politics as something outside of their lives, something that is intrinsically linked to politicians. But that's because they've be told that's what politics is by the media, by politicians, by capital etc. But it's not true, and we (socialists) shouldn't go along with that line.

 

[krtek a houby]

I do believe in the class war, in as far as some activists might be pushing it a bit far when people just aren't interested. You tell a working class person that they're in a class war and they'd be better off doing socialism instead of not voting/not participating and they might look at you a bit funny. IMHO, of course.

Now, it's quite possible that they would be better off in a socialist state. It can't be any worse than it is now under successive tory and tory-lite governments.

I think it's maybe how you go about converting people to the cause. How to get them interested. The Brexit referendum got people interested; why was that?

 

[Raheem]

The Brexit referendum got people interested; why was that?

In no small part, because they were told to be interested. And, given that there was a referendum, they were sort of forced to be.

 

[Happy Larry]

You tell a working class person that they're in a class war and they'd be better off doing socialism instead of not voting/not participating and they might look at you a bit funny.

Of course they do. Using words like "working class" is just so cheesy and old fashioned. You sound like some kind of dinosaur from days gone by. We are no longer living in the days when tens of millions of people performed manual labour in coal mines, farms and heavy industry.

 

[redsquirrel]

I do believe in the class war,

Really, so when you came out with this stuff below you were talking crap?

I believe that "class" and reducing everything down to "class" is identity politics.

(from here)

Class, religion, politics - all identities.

I have argued (unsuccessfuly,it must be said) that class is part of identity politics.

One thing I won't miss with this country is the obsssession with "class".

Am amazed how some elements of the "left" have alligned themselves with Brexiteer stars like Farage and co.

Am fucking grieving today - if you want to make a class thing out of it; fine but it means nothing to me.

Oh, that old chestnut. Used to silence any dissent over the class obsession.

Of course there are "class" and economic factors.

You're talking about liberal capitalism. I was talking about people's lives being erased because of their politics and or "class".

Because identity politics isn't just a "liberal" thing. When people mention working class and blaming everything on the liberals, that's a prime example of it.

Do I think the working class are worthier than liberals? No. I believe they both indulge in identity politics.

As for working class - someone who has a job? I don't subscribe to class systems. Being a tree hugging wooly fiendish liberal thicko and all...

Not arguing with you there, Danny. I've dismantled it in my mind. It's a start.

 

[krtek a houby]

Really, so when you came out with this stuff below you were talking crap?
(from here)

Oh, cross thread beef.

Read what I said again - I do believe in the class war, in as far as some activists might be pushing it a bit far when people just aren't interested.

Engaging by waging war on others, getting them to "do" socialism and join the fight. It's not going to happen (especially not with the hectoring you engage in) because the ordinary person just wants to get on with life.

Once you start berating/lecturing your audience with the idea of "class war", you've lost their interest.

It just comes across as very Alan Parker Urban Warrior, unfortunately.

 

[redsquirrel]

Oh, cross thread beef.

Pointing out that ever since you've posted on U75 you've attacked the idea of class and thus that you're utterly inconsistent is not cross thread beef. The fact that you contradict yourself constantly isn't my fault.

Read what I said again - I do believe in the class war, in as far as some activists might be pushing it a bit far when people just aren't interested.

I've no idea what that means and how it is consistent with your previous insistence that class either doesn't exist or is an identity I've no idea.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

In no small part, because they were told to be interested. And, given that there was a referendum, they were sort of forced to be.

Many people who don't usually vote say they don’t because they don’t think their vote will make a difference. Usual reason they give is that they think all politicians are the same ie wankers or that they don’t understand politics. I think voters understood that the referendum was different because all votes would make a difference. That their vote would count. So many voted for the first time in their lives.

To vote people need to have a reason to vote. Those who feel excluded need to have a reason to feel included. The chance of a council house might do it. I think house ownership is not on the radar of many younger people now. They just want a decent & affordable home. If they can be convinced that Labour will build council houses then they will vote Labour. If they are not convinced by Labour then I doubt they will vote Tory. They just won’t vote.

I think Labour did better than expected at last GE because those who don’t usually vote, mostly younger people did vote & they voted Labour. So I think Labour can probably win just by convincing those who see no point in voting at elections to vote Labour.

 

[redsquirrel]

What he's saying if I've read him right & from what I e read of Irish history is that the workers were Irish but the bosses were anglo Irish ie brits

Yes and in what way is that not nationalising the class struggle? All the bosses were British? Even in 1973? In 2017?

 

[redsquirrel]

Incidentally I hope those arguing against leaving the EU on economic grounds didn't vote Labour, going to be even more damaging!

Morgan Stanley warned of the UK’s fragile political situation, saying: “For much of the past 30 years and more, a change of government ultimately had a relatively limited impact on the UK equity market, as policy settings didn’t change too dramatically. However, this may not be the case if we see a Labour government take power under its current leadership, given its very different policy approach.

“It is certainly plausible that the Labour party could ultimately moderate some of its more radical policy ideas; the alternative could be the most significant political shift in the UK since the end of the 1970s.”

 

[krtek a houby]

Pointing out that ever since you've posted on U75 you've attacked the idea of class and thus that you're utterly inconsistent is not cross thread beef. The fact that you contradict yourself constantly isn't my fault.

I've no idea what that means and how it is consistent with your previous insistence that class either doesn't exist or is an identity I've no idea.

Clearly you have no idea. Given that your first statment is a load of bollocks. I understand the British obsession with class, I do. It took me a while but I still don't subscribe to it. But with you, everything boils down to class.

It's a lazy, shouty way to shut down dialogue. There's not going to be a glorious revolution, at least, not on your terms. As long as you hector and bridle that not everyone sees things as clearly as you do.

Sorry Alan, but that's just the way it is. I've met people like you who would bore for Britain with class this class that and managing to alienate would be converts. Then I've met real activists who actually talk about issues and do stuff without the patronising class war shite.

You need to update your spreadsheet in the meantime.

 

[redsquirrel]

Clearly you have no idea. Given that your first statment is a load of bollocks. I understand the British obsession with class, I do. It took me a while but I still don't subscribe to it. But with you, everything boils down to class.

Right so you don't believe in class war then? FFS you can't even maintain a straight line in the space of three posts.

 

[krtek a houby]

Right so you don't believe in class war then? FFS you can't even maintain a straight line in the space of three posts.

Calm down, Alan. You obviously are incapable of reading what I asked you to re-read. I'm not going to spell it out for you. Just add it to your spreadsheet or give me a polygraph. Whatever puts your mind at ease.

 

[krtek a houby]

Of course they do. Using words like "working class" is just so cheesy and old fashioned. You sound like some kind of dinosaur from days gone by. We are no longer living in the days when tens of millions of people performed manual labour in coal mines, farms and heavy industry.

Yeah because everyone's satisfied with their lot, the job losses, entire communities decimated, food banks and so on. They just got on their bikes and became IT consultants or speculated on the markets, right?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The Morgan Stanley thing is typical US red under every bed bollocks. A Corbyn led government is not going to be some loony far left regime it will be democratic socialism.

 

[mojo pixy]

You tell a working class person that they're in a class war and they'd be better off doing socialism instead of not voting/not participating and they might look at you a bit funny. IMHO, of course.

...

I think it's maybe how you go about converting people to the cause.

This is all a bit patronising and clearly shows the weakness of a class as identity position.

It's too early for me to deconstruct it all but put simply, the people I work with (all working class, such is the nature of our work) might look a but funny if I start on about "class war" ... but if we start talking about how our bosses are not on our side and the company's priorities and motives are different and in fact usually opposite to ours (as low-status frontline workers) then I can tell you, everyone agrees. Nobody looks funny. And in my experience most workplace mithering consists broadly of variations on that conversation. Working class people get there is a class war.

The only question is yeah well what can we do about it, while wages are low and we have no time or energy to do anything but keep working?

 

[redsquirrel]

The Morgan Stanley thing is typical US red under every bed bollocks. A Corbyn led government is not going to be some loony far left regime it will be democratic socialism.

Of course, but if you arguing against the UK leaving the EU because of the economic damage it will cause then you're inviting this bollocks. Two sides of the same coin.

 

[krtek a houby]

This is all a bit patronising and clearly shows the weakness of a class as identity position.

It's too early for me to deconstruct it all but put simply, the people I work with (all working class, such is the nature of our work) might look a but funny if I start on about "class war" ... but if we start talking about how our bosses are not on our side and the company's priorities and motives are different and in fact usually opposite to ours (as low-status frontline workers) then I can tell you, everyone agrees. Nobody looks funny. And in my experience most workplace mithering consists broadly of variations on that conversation. Working class people get there is a class war.

The only question is yeah well what can we do about it, while wages are low and we have no time or energy to do anything but keep working?

Ah! But the phrasing is different, it's not hectoring at all. I agree entirely - I've been there at those meetings. I joined my union back in the day because it was the right thing to do. There were many discussions about the lot of us on the ground and the lot of them upstairs. The dirty tricks, the backstabbings, the justifications for us not getting a raise in wages even though we were being made redundant and more and more work to take on, those that was left.

At no point in the meetings did any earnest class war discussion take place. And that's what I'm saying puts people off. The concerns of the workers is what mattered. The abyss between us and them was self-evident, a given. In the end, we were defeated, castrated whatever you want to call it. Maybe there should have been more militancy in our stance but that's the way it ended.

 

[mojo pixy]

So what I'm saying is, nobody uses the phrase Class War except as a joke, right? Especially in the actual workplace.

But going from there to a position that working class people don't understand the nature of the struggle is both patronising and completely wrong.

The problem isn't what's the problem? The problem is what are we meant to do about the problem? A completely different problem.

 

[mojo pixy]

..especially when striking and even working to rule are treated more or less as disciplinary matters by the company.

 

[krtek a houby]

So what I'm saying is, nobody uses the phrase Class War except as a joke, right? Especially in the actual workplace.

But going from there to a position that working class people don't understand the nature of the struggle is both patronising and completely wrong.

The problem isn't what's the problem? The problem is what are we meant to do about the problem? A completely different problem.

I'm not saying that people don't understand the phrase, rather that it's too alienating. But of course, nomenclature aside, it's how to deal with the problem that faces workers up and down the country. And will it get better or worse, post-brexit?

Will the unions lose even more teeth when you leave the EU?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Of course, but if you arguing against the UK leaving the EU because of the economic damage it will cause then you're inviting this bollocks. Two sides of the same coin.

You have to see the context of the Morgan Stanley thing. They are advising US investors. A right wing brexit with the loony right wing brexiteers in power would be good for the US because for example US medical insurance co’s would have access to UK market as NHS was privatised. However it looks like we might well get a left wing Labour government & lexit so less profit for US investors.

Even without brexit & Cameron still in charge I think we would have got Labour in at next GE because more & more people don’t like the Tories & I think Labour would have still have got younger people out to vote Labour. The issue would still be unaffordable housing. The Tories will never solve the housing crisis without completely stealing Labour’s clothes.

So Morgan Stanley advice to their investors is simply that a socialist government in UK would mean less profits for them. In the greater UK scheme of things it amounts to absolutely fuck all & will be yesterday’s news as early as this evening imo.

 

[redsquirrel]

You have to see the context of the Morgan Stanley thing. They are advising US investors. A right wing brexit with the loony right wing brexiteers in power would be good for the US because for example US medical insurance co’s would have access to UK market as NHS was privatised. However it looks like we might well get a left wing Labour government & lexit so less profit for US investors.
<snip>
So Morgan Stanley advice to their investors is simply that a socialist government in UK would mean less profits for them. In the greater UK scheme of things it amounts to absolutely fuck all & will be yesterday’s news as early as this evening imo.

So we can ignore Morgan Stanley but when Goldman Sachs tells us that Brexit will be terrible for the economy we have to listen to them?

I'm not arguing that this report by the financial institution is anything but rubbish. I'm arguing that it's hypocritical to argue about how leaving the EU will cause the economy to collapse while dismissing the same arguments by the same set of bastards about Labour.