Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[bubblesmcgrath]

Actually I would agree with pretty much all of that, but it doesn't stop me wishing things were different

FWIW (which is nothing) my own fantasy would be a federal UK, with an administrative capital in Manchester but devo max max *MAX* to Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff and London. As the largest nation population wise, England would be sub-divided into regions with less, but still substantial, powers than the national parliaments in Wales, Scotland and Ireland to prevent any one part of the UK dominating.

But that's what it is- total fantasy, and getting off topic too.....

But....Eire is not part of the UK....and we do not want to be... why is this so hard for people to get?

I better leave this thread...my posts are not adding anything to the discourse.

Good luck to all the brexiters and those who sail in you...
Let's hope the outcome is not a monumental disaster.

 

[Winot]

Actually I have really appreciated the RoI perspective you have given bubblesmcgrath so thank you. I hope you do keep posting.

 

[Slo-mo]

But....Eire is not part of the UK....and we do not want to be... why is this so hard for people to get?

I completely get it, and I get why. I just said I wished things were different.

I too appreciate a different perspective on these things

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It’s blatantly obvious why the Irish wouldn’t want to assist the UK government, hundreds of years of abuse and now the balance of power is shifted.

What I don’t get is the insistence that trade can’t be discussed until the border situation is sorted. Surely the border issue is all about trade, so can’t be sorted without bringing trade in to it?

 

[Silas Loom]

What I don’t get is the insistence that trade can’t be discussed until the border situation is sorted. Surely the border issue is all about trade, so can’t be sorted without bringing trade in to it?

Because you can either discuss CETA and a sea border, or Norway+ with a soft land border. And it needs to be clear which is being discussed, without a fudge. No one in Brussels or Dublin is being unreasonable on that score.

 

[planetgeli]

What I don’t get is the insistence that trade can’t be discussed until the border situation is sorted. Surely the border issue is all about trade, so can’t be sorted without bringing trade in to it?

It’s almost like Yannis Varoufakis was right when he said they’d tie us in knots in negotiations.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I doubt the EU have any intention of reaching any sort of settlement about anything. Imo they are trying to prevent brexit.

 

[Dr. Furface]

I doubt the EU have any intention of reaching any sort of settlement about anything. Imo they are trying to prevent brexit.

That's one way of looking at it. On the other hand you might see the UK as being deliberately awkward and stubborn because Davis et al have wanted a hard brexit all along - which they know is a much more likely outcome of a failed negotiation process than us remaining in the EU.

 

[tim]

Well yes, the vote to leave was caused by successive UK governments not by the EU. Holland for example does not have the UK scale of min wage migrants because it’s employment law would not allow the business models developed in the UK to take advantage of the cheap eastern European labour pool available after 2004. Several EU countries have been able to limit migration staying within EU rules. You don’t see roadside car washes in Holland & France for example.

You might not find roadside car washes in the Netherlands, but if you want to find exploited foreign workers look in the windows of the many brothels or in the glasshouses of the horticulturalists. Who do you think picks all those tasteless but cheap Dutch tomatoes in your fridge?

 

[tim]

The geography of the zionist entity is political

As is that of Judea and Samaria

 

[tim]

Read the post again. Yes he is a Thatcher loving old git & a racist. His politics is at polar opposites to mine. And yet the anarchist part of me that has always been there recognises the anarchy in him & many of the leave voters. They are angry about their lives & angry about the successive governments that have done them down. They are still happy to leave the EU. They do not care about the consequences. They would be happy for anarchy to reign. However I do doubt many would even know the meaning of the word.

Patronising ageist bilge!

 

[SaskiaJayne]

You might not find roadside car washes in the Netherlands, but if you want to find exploited foreign workers look in the windows of the many brothels or in the glasshouses of the horticulturalists. Who do you think picks all those tasteless but cheap Dutch tomatoes in your fridge?

Did I say Holland treats migrant workers better than UK? Not necessarily. What It manages to do within EU laws is make migrant workers less welcome & better employment laws & enforcement of those laws in Holland makes it less worthwhile for companies to employ migrant workers. France manages to do similar so it has less migrant workers.

Migration from the EU was a factor in the referendum result. The perception by some leave voters was that there are too many migrant workers in the UK & that these migrant workers are somehow prioritised over UK workers. The truth of that is not relevant. What is relevant is that enough UK voters thought that to vote leave to probably swing the result to leave. Call them racist, call them what you like but in a narrow result their votes probably swung it.

Going back to the original point the leave vote was most likely caused not by the EU but by the UK’s staying absolutely within EU rules when other countries often attempt to circumvent EU rules if it suits them.

 

[redsquirrel]

Lol.....what do you think the Irish population was to the British empire only the underclass....not even working class.
My posts are to do with what will happen if there is a hard border between Ireland and NI....(UK)

No your posts are nationalistic defence of the EU. What's pathetic is that so the same people who are willing to write off leave voters as racists, nationalists etc are willing to cosy up to such nonsense.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Patronising ageist bilge!

Yawn. Must try harder. The bloke was old & fairly typical of older people in my very leave voting town. There are certainly more old people like him around where I live than lefty old people like me. His totally ideologically driven approach to brexit rather than be troubled by any facts did rather make him an anarchist I thought. I reserve my right to dislike nasty racist old cunts like him.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

This.....and much worse....is why Ireland ...as in the Irish people...will not trust the British establishment ..




I dont know how to make the photo a spoiler....sorry if its too graphic....but it needs to be so that people like redsquirrel see why the Irish are not queuing up to join up to the UK again.

No your posts are nationalistic defence of the EU. What's pathetic is that so the same people who are willing to write off leave voters as racists, nationalists etc are willing to cosy up to such nonsense.

My posts are..to quote you.." nationalistic defence" for never being part of the uk again....
You haven't a fucking clue about Eire or our history...and you are just spouting gobshite....
How can you possibly understand Ireland? You've never been colonised...and you are whingeing about fuck all from a position where your country's history is one of conquest, slavery, oppression and suppression.
You......redsquirrel.... know fuck all at all...
It's easy for you to spout about nationalism from a perspective of dominance over 1/3 of the world.....get the fuck out of NI and then talk to me about nationalism.
You're pro brexit...because you want england to rule itself....lol....learn your own history...england has never been on its own...it thrives because of its commonwealth....you've got your own version of the eu..
Good luck to you....fool....

 

[Happy Larry]

but it needs to be so that peoole like redsquirrel see why the Irish are not queuing up to join up to the UK again.

I'm not sure that many in the UK want to be joined with them. They do,however, believe that the people of Northern Ireland deserve their protection from the murderers in the IRA, if they want to remain part of the UK.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I'm not sure that many in the UK want to be joined with them. They do,however, believe that the people of Northern Ireland deserve their protection from the murderers in the IRA, if they want to remain part of the UK.

A hard border is not the answer then.
The people living in NI comprise of nationalists and unionists...and neither want a hard border or a return to the troubles.....
NI is part of the UK...but the peace process and GFA have been fantastic for NI....from every perspective.
Nobody gave NI any thought before the Brexit referendum...
They should have though...

By the way....the black and tans were paid by the british government to kill their own peoole. Dont forget that Ireland was still part of the uk when the black and tans were sent in.
NI nationalists have a dread of British soldiers too...for similar reasons. The british government has taken a very long time to respect the nationalist people in NI despite their being british citizens....

 

[Slo-mo]

By the way....the black and tans were paid by the british government to kill their own peoole. Dont forget that Ireland was still part of the uk when the black and tans were sent in...

Yep. It was possibly too late by that point to keep the country together but disgusting actions like the ones you describe above ensured decades of mistrust which is only now beginning to subside.

Getting this somewhere back on topic, like I say I'm a hard Brexiteer but I think a hard border in Ireland would be a disaster.

 

[Silas Loom]

Getting this somewhere back on topic, like I say I'm a hard Brexiteer but I think a hard border in Ireland would be a disaster.

Then, what do you want? A special status for NI with shared EU and UK governance and a hard sea border? Or what? So far, you aren’t saying much more than David Davis is.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I'm not sure that many in the UK want to be joined with them. They do,however, believe that the people of Northern Ireland deserve their protection from the murderers in the IRA, if they want to remain part of the UK.

Sorry but the irony is strong here...^^^
You're talking about the people of NI as if they're all unionists..they are not.....this is exactly what I was trying to get across to you.
You say the people of NI deserve protection from the IRA....sure...of course.
By the same token...the people of Northern Ireland deserved protection from the british soldiers too...and with the history of how British soldiers treated the Irish throughout the island you surely can see why there's a big problem with a hard border.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I can only speak for myself but having always lived in sth east corner of UK I have very little knowledge of day to day issues on the island of Ireland. I don’t think many leave voters around my way even thought about Ireland. I’m sure if asked they would give an opinion but without taking time to read up about the history of Ireland I would think any answer they might give would not be a realistic one. From what I understand the best way would be to leave things as they are. Anything else would be a retrograde step.

 

[Winot]

Well it’s all very complicated isn’t it, with multiple dependent issues that few voters are expert in. Almost as if it shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic yes/no referendum question...

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Indeed, a circular argument. A bit like this thread.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Well it’s all very complicated isn’t it, with multiple dependent issues that few voters are expert in. Almost as if it shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic yes/no referendum question...

Although of course one way might be a simplistic yes/no referendum. Then about 18mnths to discuss the nuts & bolts of it followed by another referendum when there is more idea of what the result might look like? Are you all sure you still want to do this? Maybe for such a fundemental change more like an 80% vote might be needed rather than 51%? Stuff like that.

Or perhaps make the referendum result not legally binding so result can be ignored if disaster is looming?..oh hang on they already did that more by luck than judgement...

 

[redsquirrel]

I dont know how to make the photo a spoiler....sorry if its too graphic....but it needs to be so that people like redsquirrel see why the Irish are not queuing up to join up to the UK again.

I've not made any such argument.

My posts are..to quote you.." nationalistic defence" for never being part of the uk again....

No you've argued that the EU has helped the Irish working class.

You're pro brexit...because you want england to rule itself....lol....learn your own history...england has never been on its own...it thrives because of its commonwealth....you've got your own version of the eu..
Good luck to you....fool....

Again total crap. I've never made any such argument. I'm a communist, personally I think it is in the advantage of the working class (UK, Irish, European and worldwide) for the collapse of the EU. But whether you are arguing for the UK to remain part of the EU or to leave what you must do is argue from a class based perspective. You talk about "Ireland" and "the UK" as though those nations had some existential existence rather than being deeply divided by class.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not sure that many in the UK want to be joined with them. They do,however, believe that the people of Northern Ireland deserve their protection from the murderers in the IRA, if they want to remain part of the UK.

Well, perhaps the people also deserve protection from the murderers in the crown forces, UDA, UFF etc as well.

For parity's sake, yeah?

 

[redsquirrel]

Well it’s all very complicated isn’t it, with multiple dependent issues that few voters are expert in. Almost as if it shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic yes/no referendum question...

Yeah, can't trust the thicko's. Should be left to our betters (the same betters that have driven inequality to a level equal to that during Victorian times)

 

[krtek a houby]

The ROI is well rid of the nefarious British influence in the EU.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I've not made any such argument.
No you've argued that the EU has helped the Irish working class.
Again total crap. I've never made any such argument. I'm a communist, personally I think it is in the advantage of the working class (UK, Irish, European and worldwide) for the collapse of the EU. But whether you are arguing for the UK to remain part of the EU or to leave what you must do is argue from a class based perspective. You talk about "Ireland" and "the UK" as though those nations had some existential existence rather than being deeply divided by class.

BS.
The "working class" in Ireland?
Every fucking person in Ireland up to joining the EU was working class....
Middle and upper were anglo irish ...
Anyone working in Ireland presently in regular jobs is working class.
Do you mean the people who are generationally supported by the social welfare system? That only fully came into being when we joined the EU.

 

[redsquirrel]

Prefect example of what I've been talking about. All Irish in the same class, no capitalism in Ireland! You utter berk.