Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[paolo]

Yes, I know all that. That's what I told him and that, among other reasons, is why I told him to stick his job.

The bit about reporting him to the EU was a joke referring to paolo's apparent belief that it's for the EU to enforce

My concluding point was (intended)

Is there anything from the EU that *reduces* worker rights, that when we leave, will no longer reduce rights?

 

[paolo]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

 

[redsquirrel]

I see confused thinking in a lot of posts here. The EU is simultaneously too powerful and not powerful enough.

What twaddle. The only person who's come close to arguing anything like this over the last couple of pages is paolo.

 

[redsquirrel]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

When did you stop hitting your wife?

 

[Supine]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

The right to chlorinate mucky chicken rather than the requirement to grow them in sanitary conditions.

The right to breath air that doesn't need to comply with those pesky environmental protections.

The right to a paycut as our companies start competing with the third world on cost.

 

[pocketscience]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

you could do much worse than taking a look at labour laws in Iceland or Norway (or Human Rights, LGBT rights etc) to see that social protection isn't an exclusive domain of the EU

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you could do much worse than taking a look at labour laws in Iceland or Norway (or Human Rights, LGBT rights etc) to see that social protection isn't an exclusive domain of the EU

No it's not. How is the UK going to magically transform itself into a Scandinavia-style social market? Is that a likely direction of travel post-Brexit? Is there a single tory politician who would seek such a thing? Or are they likely to push in the opposite direction?

 

[pocketscience]

The right to chlorinate mucky chicken rather than the requirement to grow them in sanitary conditions.

The remainers version of bendy bananas.

oi, stop chlorinating my anti-biotics contaminated chicken wings

 

[NoXion]

No shit. But until you remove the influence of the entire external environment of global capital, this is like leaving your umbrella at home and arguing with the rain.

There is no "external" environment to global capital, it's all of a piece. The fuckers have more in common with each other than they do to us. The EU dresses up in its "good cop" outfit because that's useful to furthering the project, not because they have any intrinsic concern for the rights of workers.

It's not incidental if you value your 'slightly better' conditions. I don't need to give a shit if it's the product of harmonisation. Is it better or worse?

We don't know, because you've only given counter-factuals to support your case. In actual history the UK government introduced the NMW without the EU's prodding.

In any case, whatever the EU and UK gov. give, they can take away. I'm not going to refuse scraps from the table if I'm starving, but I'm also not going to delude myself that's the best or most sustainable solution.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The difference being no one has claimed otherwise.

The rest of the rubbish you posted is again the type of crap that made people decide to vote leave.

Anyway government continuing to try to get Labour MPs onside.

Dangerous game. If they really do plan on getting May's deal through on Labour votes then those Tories opposed end up getting pushed into going to a VoNC.

At this stage you're probably going to be better off leaving with no deal.

You seem to be an expert on EU regurlations, so can you anwer me this;
when remainers were challenged up thread, that Corbyns plan to nationalise key industries would be hindered by the regulations of EU competition law, were the UK bound to the EU, those remainers suggested that the UK could simply ignore EU rules - just like France and Germany regularly do.
So can the UK gov ignore those EU rules you're suggesting they answer to? and if so, why do you think the tory governments haven't previously ignored those rules anyway and gone all out Singapore?

Sorry, I'm confused. Are you suggesting that this post brexit goverment will up taxes and cut spending on the NHS? what kind of government would that be? Tory, Labour, who?

I mean, forgive me for thinking you've got this a bit arse about face, I can only imagine that as an Irish citizen your opinion may be distorted if you think the prospects of raised taxes causing the super rich to fuck off is something negative.
Are you particularly worried that Apple (and just about every other rich multi-national) may leave Ireland when they're told to pay more taxes?

Quite honestly, what the UK does politically is totally up to you....and in this case, so long as it doesn't fuck up NI and the GFA I hope whatever you decide is your very best option. I just hope that whatever happens doesn't wreck peace over here.

 

[Supine]

The remainers version of bendy bananas.

oi, stop chlorinating my anti-biotics contaminated chicken wings

The only difference being it's based on fact rather than the bendy banana bullshit

 

[not-bono-ever]

you could do much worse than taking a look at labour laws in Iceland or Norway (or Human Rights, LGBT rights etc) to see that social protection isn't an exclusive domain of the EU

The same twats will be running the show whether under the EU or not - this is the U.K.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

you could do much worse than taking a look at labour laws in Iceland or Norway (or Human Rights, LGBT rights etc) to see that social protection isn't an exclusive domain of the EU

Why are you looking to Norway?
The UK will NEVER be like them.
They are rolling in gas and oil money and share that wealth with their population.
The UK will NEVER be like that.

 

[paolo]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

I'll keep doing this - I'm going down the shop. Try in an hour?

 

[redsquirrel]

Let's start afresh:

What increased workers rights do we get when we leave?

The working time directive came into force in 2003. So have the hours workers actually work decreased since then? Are we working fewer hours than in the 50s/60s/70s/80s?

 

[pocketscience]

No it's not. How is the UK going to magically transform itself into a Scandinavia-style social market? Is that a likely direction of travel post-Brexit? Is there a single tory politician who would seek such a thing? Or are they likely to push in the opposite direction?

Sure, if the ''left wing' opinion on here is anything to go by, then no chance - being either to lathargic or really just liberals at heart.
There's no will in the left to fight for it, neither out nor in the EU from what I can tell.
Look at the Gilets juanes thread as an example, seemed someswere desperate in the hope that the protesters are just aabunch of French gammons

 

[ska invita]

The working time directive came into force in 2003. So have the hours of workers actually work decreased since then? Are we working fewer hours than in the 50s/60s/70s/80s?

Does anyone know about this for certain? I have the vaguest of understanding of it:
Id expect working hours would have gone down in the countries that recognised the directive (France at an educated guess?) - IIRC the UK govenrment fought to make sure it wasnt binding and included opt outs, which employees are bascially forced to sign if they want a job that goes over the limits
Even that 48 hours is under threat supposedly (indy link)
Theresa May refuses to guarantee EU rules to limit the working week to 48 hours will survive Brexit

 

[ska invita]

Look at the Gilets juanes thread as an example, seemed someswere desperate in the hope that the protesters are just aabunch of French gammons

Thats unfair pocketscience, theres clearly a battle over the political direction of the Vests - French people nearly elected Le Pen as President last year, of course there are many reactionary attitudes amongst the French masses. I didnt see anyone on that thread desperate to say thats all it is ... clearly there is a big reactionary element within it. The last election proves that, based purely on head count.

 

[ska invita]

Sure, if the ''left wing' opinion on here is anything to go by, then no chance - being either to lathargic or really just liberals at heart.
There's no will in the left to fight for it, neither out nor in the EU from what I can tell.

All the energy going into the Labour party couldnt be more of an attempt to recreate an imagined Scandinavia idyll

 

[pocketscience]

The only difference being it's based on fact rather than the bendy banana bullshit

you missed the point. anyone who doesn't give a shit about their chickens being pumped full of anti-biotics really shouldn't care less about chlorinated water to clean them.

 

[pocketscience]

Thats unfair pocketscience, theres clearly a battle over the political direction of the Vests - French people nearly elected Le Pen as President last year, of course there are many reactionary attitudes amongst the French masses. I didnt see anyone on that thread desperate to say thats all it is ... clearly there is a big reactionary element within it. The last election proves that, based purely on head count.

OK fair enough. They may be legit concerns but my wider point is that the left are doing nothing of note about neoliberal policies eating away at workers living standards except trying to decipher the voting patterns of those that are. I recall similar attitudes during the catalan independence protests.

 

[dshl]

From the BBC news website:
"However, the prime minister has ruled out the prospect of another public vote. Mrs May has repeatedly told MPs that the 2016 referendum result "should be respected"."

But that is now outdated data. Surely the current "will of the people" should be respected? Especially since the original Leave campaign has been shown to be flawed and not entirely honest. We all now have a better understanding of the effects of Brexit, both good and bad. Surely another referendum will either confirm the 2016 vote or show that the majority now want to remain?

As a great philosopher once said, "Is that your final answer?"

If only we could now whizz over to a parallel universe where the remainders won and it was the leavers who were harping on about a second referendum. If only we could see for just a flash moment what your sentiment would be about another referendum.

 

[redsquirrel]

Does anyone know about this for certain? I have the vaguest of understanding of it:
Id expect working hours would have gone down in the countries that recognised the directive (France at an educated guess?) - IIRC the UK govenrment fought to make sure it wasnt binding and included opt outs, which employees are bascially forced to sign if they want a job that goes over the limits
Even that 48 hours is under threat supposedly (indy link)
Theresa May refuses to guarantee EU rules to limit the working week to 48 hours will survive Brexit

The amount of unpaid overtime that is been done has been steadily increasing since the records began (sometime in the 80s IIRC). 1, 2, 3, 4.
And you see the same trend across countries.

EDIT: As Seymour points out the official average number of hours of worked might have dropped but the number of hours workers are actually working hasn't.

 

[mojo pixy]

So far all I'm really getting from this Newtons Cradle style debate is that, whether we leave the EU or stay in the EU, we need better UK government(s). Till then nothing gets better, whether we're in or out.

 

[pocketscience]

All the energy going into the Labour party couldnt be more of an attempt to recreate an imagined Scandinavia idyll

Maybe, there's just too little energy coming out of it
As mentioned upthread, I'd personally prefer them to be much more vocal on laying out specific terms for their vision of socialist society, but currently you cant do that unless you're specific on Brexit. Labour hasn't been so need to spend some of that energy on it.

 

[paolo]

One of the frustrating things, for socialist remainers, is nothing to cling on to.

Labour are, for now, roughly, aligned with the tories.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Sure, if the ''left wing' opinion on here is anything to go by, then no chance - being either to lathargic or really just liberals at heart.
There's no will in the left to fight for it, neither out nor in the EU from what I can tell.
Look at the Gilets juanes thread as an example, seemed someswere desperate in the hope that the protesters are just aabunch of French gammons

"leftist radicals" cant magic up a mass workers movement out of thin air though can they?
Ive aruged before that Lexit is only plausible if you have a strong, organised working class with the desire to defend and advance their interests (and things like a strong manufacturing base)
We are a million miles away from that.

 

[redsquirrel]

One of the frustrating things, for socialist remainers, is nothing to cling on to.

Labour are, for now, roughly, aligned with the tories.

Are you, in your view anyway, a "socialist remainer"?

The fact that you append the first with the second speaks volumes.

 

[Spymaster]

Are you, in your view anyway, a "socialist remainer"?

The fact that you append the first with the second speaks volumes.

What is he in your view?

 

[pocketscience]

"leftist radicals" cant magic up a mass workers movement out of thin air though can they?
Ive aruged before that Lexit is only plausible if you have a strong, organised working class with the desire to defend and advance their interests (and things like a strong manufacturing base)
We are a million miles away from that.

I like to think it's closer that we realise. The results of the last GE testifes to that imo. A correlation between Labour moving (not radically but) leftwards and a significant increase in votes tends to suggest thet should continue upping that particular ante.