Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[teuchter]

If RoI say no in those circumstances, wouldn't they be breaking the terms of the GFA which provide for re-unification if a majority in NI want it?

I think the GFA says re-unification should happen if a majority in both RoI and NI want it.

 

[kabbes]

This is akin to the Solvenians saying that the Italians have to stay part of the EU forever because they want to be able to travel unimpeded to Spain. Or some other tortuous metaphor that involves thinking you get a say in whether another country is allowed to erect borders around its own nation or not.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Because that’s how it works when other countries leave the EU. Borders appear. But you don’t get to insist others stay part of the EU forever because you don’t like having borders.

I'm not insisting Britain stays. I couldn't care less what ye do. Its the fuck up that your actions will create here that I give a shit about.
Jeez.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not insisting Britain stays. I couldn't care less what he do. Its the fuck up that your actions will create here that I give a shit about.
Jeez.

Actually, you are exactly insisting that the U.K. not leave the EU customs union. I don’t know what else you think you’re arguing for.

 

[teuchter]

No, you proceed with Brexit whilst simultaneously giving the referendum to the people of NI, who will be able to join the ROI before the end of the transition period if that’s what they choose.

If the people of NI choose to join ROI and then the ROI reject this then I guess NI will have to stay in the UK but nobody gets to make a big fucking stink any more about how it’s really all just one island and omigosh now brothers separated by a border not of their choosing will have to have a passport to drive across it. Because one of those brothers when pushed went, “er, actually”

Ok. But is it then reasonable to take the Brexit referendum result as a mandate for this to happen? When people voted in the Brexit referendum, was it clear that a consequence of a Leave vote would be NI being presented with this choice: hard border with the Republic or leave the UK? And add in the fact that if NI were given this choice there'd be a pretty strong argument for giving Scotland the same option. Unless it's reasonable to assume that people anticipated these consequences when voting in the referendum, surely the argument for a second referendum is strengthened? One where people are given a choice at a point where significant consequences of the decision are as clear as they can be.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Actually, you are exactly insisting that the U.K. not leave the EU customs union. I don’t know what else you think you’re arguing for.

 

[kabbes]

Is that you realising that you are indeed insisting Britain stays in the customs union?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Is that you realising that you are indeed insisting Britain stays in the customs union?

No... Its me realising that you're so far up your own arse that you can't possibly see any other point of view other than your own shit.

 

[kabbes]

Ok. But is it then reasonable to take the Brexit referendum result as a mandate for this to happen? When people voted in the Brexit referendum, was it clear that a consequence of a Leave vote would be NI being presented with this choice: hard border with the Republic or leave the UK? And add in the fact that if NI were given this choice there'd be a pretty strong argument for giving Scotland the same option. Unless it's reasonable to assume that people anticipated these consequences when voting in the referendum, surely the argument for a second referendum is strengthened? One where people are given a choice at a point where significant consequences of the decision are as clear as they can be.

People wanted to leave. In my view, this is the best way to make that happen

As I said before, it’s all about priorities

 

[kabbes]

No... Its me realising that you're so far up your own arse that you can't possibly see any other point of view other than your own shit.

How else do you propose getting what you want other than either Britain staying in the customs union or unifying Ireland?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

The British government can't agree.

How else do you propose getting what you want other than either Britain staying in the customs union or unifying Ireland?

What I want?

Ffs do you not get that Ireland was perfectly happy and didn't "want" anything but to just get on with things.
BREXIT is not our baby. Its yours.
Go change your own nappy.
And stop looking for Ireland to mop up after you're done..cos that's what Brexit is doing. Its going to fuck up Ireland. And Brexiteers don't give a flying fuck about that do they? They're only desire is for a Great Britain...an Empire again.
Grow up. The modern world doesn't actually have a British Empire anymore. It will crash and burn ....What bothers most people in Ireland is that it will burn us all with it no matter what we do or say.
Do you get that? At all?

 

[teuchter]

People wanted to leave. In my view, this is the best way to make that happen

As I said before, it’s all about priorities

Why is it better than just doing a Brexit that keeps us in the customs union? That's based on your assumption about what people's priorities were when they voted, isn't it?

 

[kabbes]

The British government can't agree.



What I want?

Ffs do you not get that Ireland was perfectly happy and didn't "want" anything but to just get on with things.
BREXIT is not our baby. Its yours.
Go change your own nappy.
And stop looking for Ireland to mop up after you're done..cos that's what Brexit is doing. Its going to fuck up Ireland. And Brexiteers don't give a flying fuck about that do they? They're only desire is for a Great Britain...an Empire again.
Grow up. The modern world doesn't actually have a British Empire anymore. It will crash and burn ....What bothers most people in Ireland is that it will burn us all with it no matter what we do or say.
Do you get that? At all?

You know that doesn’t answer the question, right? It’s just an angry brain dump.

You say that you don’t want to dictate that Britain has to stay in the customs union but you also reject a border and reject NI being cut loose. So how are you solving it? You either have to insist we stay in the customs union or you have to accept one of the solutions that allows us to leave. It can’t be both.

 

[kabbes]

Why is it better than just doing a Brexit that keeps us in the customs union? That's based on your assumption about what people's priorities were when they voted, isn't it?

No, it’s my preference. Not what should happen.

I’m just pointing out that if your priority is Brexit, the Irish issue is not insoluble.

 

[teuchter]

I’m just pointing out that if your priority is Brexit, the Irish issue is not insoluble.

That seems like stating the obvious. The real questions are about what it's acceptable to give Brexit priority over, and how to determine what kind of Brexit counts as Brexit.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

You know that doesn’t answer the question, right? It’s just an angry brain dump.

You say that you don’t want to dictate that Britain has to stay in the customs union but you also reject a border and reject NI being cut loose. So how are you solving it? You either have to insist we stay in the customs union or you have to accept one of the solutions that allows us to leave. It can’t be both.

Its not for Ireland to solve it. We are actually doing our best to govern our own country and to protect our interests and that's what we should be doing.

I think that in my posts I've been very clear.
Nobody is stopping you leaving. But your government can't even agree on what to do so why would I be able to find a solution for you? All I'm doing is showing you the repercussions of the Brexit process producing a hard border...on people who have little or nothing to do with Brexit but who will suffer for it.

There is one glaringly obvious solution that could sort all of this easily. But if I suggest it then you'll accuse me of telling a sovereign country what to do. I'll leave that elephant in that room and just close that door. It can only be opened by the people of the UK .

 

[pocketscience]

Lol....why should we do anything? We aren't the ones looking for out of the EU?
We have no border with NI.
Why the fuck should we have one because of another country's actions?

Brussels will insist you do it. Like they do with your budgets etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Its not for Ireland to solve it. We are actually doing our best to govern our own country and to protect our interests and that's what we should be doing.

I think that in my posts I've been very clear.
Nobody is stopping you leaving. But your government can't even agree on what to do so why would I be able to find a solution for you? All I'm doing is showing you the repercussions of the Brexit process producing a hard border...on people who have little or nothing to do with Brexit but who will suffer for it.

There is one glaringly obvious solution that could sort all of this easily. But if I suggest it then you'll accuse me of telling a sovereign country what to do. I'll leave that elephant in that room and just close that door. It can only be opened by the people of the UK .

it's been mentioned several times as a way out of this impasse

 

[kabbes]

Its not for Ireland to solve it. We are actually doing our best to govern our own country and to protect our interests and that's what we should be doing.

I think that in my posts I've been very clear.
Nobody is stopping you leaving. But your government can't even agree on what to do so why would I be able to find a solution for you? All I'm doing is showing you the repercussions of the Brexit process producing a hard border...on people who have little or nothing to do with Brexit but who will suffer for it.

There is one glaringly obvious solution that could sort all of this easily. But if I suggest it then you'll accuse me of telling a sovereign country what to do. I'll leave that elephant in that room and just close that door. It can only be opened by the people of the UK .

I see. The pass-agg solution. “I’m not MAKING you do it. But I’ll sulk and stamp my foot if you don’t.”

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

it's been mentioned several times as a way out of this impasse

Yeah, and yet Ireland seems reluctant to leave to EU. No telling some people

 

[Wookey]

The British government can't agree.



What I want?

Ffs do you not get that Ireland was perfectly happy and didn't "want" anything but to just get on with things.
BREXIT is not our baby. Its yours.
Go change your own nappy.
And stop looking for Ireland to mop up after you're done..cos that's what Brexit is doing. Its going to fuck up Ireland. And Brexiteers don't give a flying fuck about that do they? They're only desire is for a Great Britain...an Empire again.
Grow up. The modern world doesn't actually have a British Empire anymore. It will crash and burn ....What bothers most people in Ireland is that it will burn us all with it no matter what we do or say.
Do you get that? At all?

Great post.

Remember too that for almost 50% of the referendum voters, this was never our issue either. The country has been hijacked.

My priorities three years ago would have been social care, homelessness and social housing, NHS protection, fracking, and that little issue about the end of civilisation as we know it within our lifetimes due to global climate change.

The number of bills, papers and reports that have been piling up since the start of this hijacking has slowed our progress by many years. The UK government is now a contradiction in terms and probably against the trade descriptions act... They are not governing, and we did not ask for any of this. Not our idea, not our beef, not our priority.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's like some people on here have never conducted a tough negotiation in their lives. This has to go to the cliff edge. The UK may even have to actually leave on WTO terms before the Empire finally reins back. But it will, in the end.

You've done lots of tough negotiations then?

 

[SpackleFrog]

The country has been hijacked.

Maybe your country has been hijacked. Most of us never had one.

 

[kabbes]

The number of bills, papers and reports that have been piling up since the start of this hijacking has slowed our progress by many years. The UK government is now a contradiction in terms and probably against the trade descriptions act... They are not governing, and we did not ask for any of this. Not our idea, not our beef, not our priority.

So basically, you're saying that Brexit has tied this Tory government up so much that it hasn't had the time to fuck things up elsewhere? Sounds good to me.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Historically, this is nonsense. It's perfectly possible for priorities to change and for one of the parties to a treaty to say "actually, we don't want to continue with this agreement, so let's talk about ending it" or even "we've had enough, we're out", without the initial agreement being based on deceit

It's also funny how some of those happy to call for another Brexit ref in the hope that they get the result they want this time are suggesting that the GFA is in some way permanent as if it were handed to us on tablets of stone.

Good point. While I remember, the GFA is fucking shit and we should rip it up.

 

[pocketscience]

Great post.

Remember too that for almost 50% of the referendum voters, this was never our issue either. The country has been hijacked.

My priorities three years ago would have been social care, homelessness and social housing, NHS protection, fracking, and that little issue about the end of civilisation as we know it within our lifetimes due to global climate change.

The number of bills, papers and reports that have been piling up since the start of this hijacking has slowed our progress by many years. The UK government is now a contradiction in terms and probably against the trade descriptions act... They are not governing, and we did not ask for any of this. Not our idea, not our beef, not our priority.

As if any of those priority topics were progressing in the right direction before brexit even became a thing. They were all getting demonstrably worse under EU rule, and still are, and will continue to if there's a 2nd ref won by remain and the whole thing is shit canned... worse regardless of brexit.

 

[Wilf]

My priorities three years ago would have been social care, homelessness and social housing, NHS protection, fracking, and that little issue about the end of civilisation as we know it within our lifetimes due to global climate change.

.

Well, y'know, get involved and do something about social care, housing, the NHS and fracking. Don't expect states to do anything for you, they are your enemy.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Well, y'know, get involved and do something about social care, housing, the NHS and fracking. Don't expect states to do anything for you, they are your enemy.

Any day now, that there EU is gon' save our souls, mister!

 

[Wilf]

Any day now, that there EU is gon' save our souls, mister!

'Dear Lord, protect us from the other capitalists'

 

[SpackleFrog]

'Dear Lord, protect us from the other capitalists'

This is, essentially, the left reformist argument for the EU. The European bourgeoisie is nicer than the British bourgeoisie.