Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Pickman's model]

No. I tell people how bad I think brexit may be, and the process already has been. And I give the reasons why I think that, and also challenge ideas put forward by others regarding good things they may think come from it. That's not telling people they're clueless.

You and others read into that other things that are not there. The clown andysays above, for instance, who rarely bothers to read what people actually say before launching into an angry rant against what he thinks they probably have said.

I note you tell, not you discuss. Suggests patronising to me

 

[Pickman's model]

Isn't that your basic approach? Tell everyone they just don't understand how bad Brexit will be and if they had any sense they'd be just as panicked as you are?

Yeh he *tells* people rather than conversing with them. Poor buggers

 

[SpackleFrog]

No. I tell people how bad I think brexit may be, and the process already has been. And I give the reasons why I think that, and also challenge ideas put forward by others regarding good things they may think come from it. That's not telling people they're clueless.

You and others read into that other things that are not there. The clown andysays above, for instance, who rarely bothers to read what people actually say before launching into an angry rant against what he thinks they probably have said.

Yeah thats not what you do at all mate soz.

Anyway the central point was that nobody should assume they have a greater understanding of the complexities of Brexit just cos they read the papers every day.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah thats not what you do at all mate soz.

Anyway the central point was that nobody should assume they have a greater understanding of the complexities of Brexit just cos they read the papers every day.

Quite possibly a worse one given the constant stream of shite in the papers

 

[Dogsauce]

Agree with all of this - but just thinking aloud:

Would the debate on immigration at least be a lot less unpleasant, or at least a better debate?

For years the standard tactic of the politicians and the media has been to blame immigrants, and keep a constant anti migrant narrative going.

Now that's led to a rejection of their systems and their institutions and they're worried about where they're gonna get cheap labour from. The narrative isn't nearly as poisonous as it used to be.

Would it be different - at least on immigration - now?

I think you’re right on this - one thing to note is that the vote in 2016 took place with the ‘migrant crisis’ in the background and some sections of the leave campaign played on that, stirring up fear about a mass invasion. That has (at least in the media) quietened down a lot now so the fears won’t be so easy to weaponise. EU migration has also slowed, less Polish shops will be opening and there may be more acceptance of them now (in the area I was living in this was something in particular that bellends would grumble about on local Facebook groups, even though they were mainly filling empty shop units not displacing ‘native’ businesses).

 

[redsquirrel]

That there's real hostility out there is undeniable, and its good to see so much more open hostility and scepticism, to politicians, to mainstream media, to power institutions.
It doesn't feel reliable though. Around the world that hostility has not for the most part gone into a constructive, socialist, mutual aid, direction. Its been successfully channelled into a selfish, inward and hateful direction.

We've just experienced a major earthquake to the global order by way of the bankers casino crash of 2008. It was perfectly clear to the whole world what had happened and who was at fault. It was and remains a massive open goal for the global left to win the arguments and force through significant changes. Where was "the strength of working people, the power of the working class and the poorer layers of British society" this last decade? As a populace we're supporting austerity, keeping calm and carrying on and voting for continuity, on the back of 40 years of the same direction.

A clique united only by their fear of the threatening rule of the workers and doing all in their power to avert this danger

The old, old story. Why won't those heathens listen and convert!

That dammed annoying working class with it's own ideas, cares and ways of acting. If only it would do as it was told by the Bolsheviks/Fabians/Labour Party/PASOK/Democrats/etc then all the problems would be over.

I could deconstruct your post post, highlighting the contradictions/errors contained within it*, but the fundamental gap in understanding would remain. You've missed the most important part of Lapavitsas quote

 Do we believe in our own strength or not? Do we believe in the strength of working people, the power of the working class and the poorer layers of British society? If we don’t, we might as well pack up and go home.

I do believe in that strength, and I know that is the only force capable of changing our lives for the better. You don't seem to and that's why you have to fall back onto "the left".

The working class has generated, is generating and will generate new methods of fighting. Adapting and changing its forms of self-organisation as older directions become atrophied and co-opted by capital. The gains the working class have made (are making and will make) have not come about because "the left" have won any argument rather the left** have won arguments on the back of working class power, solidarity and struggle. And those gains have been/will be made despite many of the working class having the "wrong" opinions.

If you truly see the working class as such a reactionary force then I'm puzzled as to why you'd call yourself a communist.

------

*For example the idea that the populace of the UK (or most other countries) support austerity or continuity is frankly bonkers. First, neo-liberalism has never been a popular doctrine - there have been strong majorities in favour of (re)nationalisation for many many years. Second, the last UK general elections was more explicitly fought on the basis of deep dissatisfaction with the extortions of the market than any for decades (even if the "alternative" provided by the LP was little more than some milk and water social democracy). And the UK is hardly alone, such sentiments have been present throughout much of the west.

It's also rather hypocritical for someone who has argued for a "vote to keep the fascists out" to now argue that such a vote somehow represents support for neo-liberalism.

**and of course the term is not defined here. From your posts on other threads I presume you would place the German Greens in "the left" but I certainly wouldn't.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is this a joke?

You and others read into that other things that are not there.

You literally did that to me repeatedly yesterday. "Repeating" back to me what I'd said, when I'd said nothing of the sort. Over the course of the exchange, you did it several times. In fact you literally said to me:

But you don't really mean that, I'm guessing.

It's not often I lose my temper on here. Very, very rarely. But your crap yesterday annoyed me more than anything on here has annoyed me. Read it back.

 

[paolo]

Agree with all of this - but just thinking aloud:

Would the debate on immigration at least be a lot less unpleasant, or at least a better debate?

For years the standard tactic of the politicians and the media has been to blame immigrants, and keep a constant anti migrant narrative going.

Now that's led to a rejection of their systems and their institutions and they're worried about where they're gonna get cheap labour from. The narrative isn't nearly as poisonous as it used to be.

Would it be different - at least on immigration - now?

It’s an interesting question, and - I think - very pertinent.

The recent poll commissioned by Channel Four News is positive in this respect.

Since the referendum, there’s been a marked increase in the number of people who see immigration as beneficial.

Wherever we end up, I hope that mood prevails in the years ahead.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I totally disagree. Quite a lot of people on this thread are frankly clueless about politics in general and about the EU. I don't think you should assume that because you spend more time doing something, you neccessarily have it mastered.

I just finished playing football, play every week, always have since I stopped playing competitive sport (rugby). I'm still fucking shit tho

its not about having it "mastered" its just that people who follow the details of politics - i.e the ins and outs of brexit - tend to more about the those details then those who dont.
A bit like people who follow football know who is doing well in the league, who is banging in the goals, whos been injured for the rest of the season - whilst those who dont follow football wouldn't have a scooby.

 

[Pickman's model]

its not about having it "mastered" its just that people who follow the details of politics - i.e the ins and outs of brexit - tend to more about the those details then those who dont.
A bit like people who follow football know who is doing well in the league, who is banging in the goals, whos been injured for the rest of the season - whilst those who dont follow football wouldn't have a scooby.

Brexit is by definition out, there are no ins in it

 

[Pickman's model]

Or inns

 

[Ranbay]

 

[Kaka Tim]

Brexit is by definition out, there are no ins in it

its shaking it all about

 

[not-bono-ever]

I still think brexit is economic self harm on a massive scale ( the tiresomely pragmatic me side) but in scrabbling around for positives out of this fuck up, I am happy to see the Tory filth being publicly eviscerated at every juncture. Like turds in a sewer, they have a habit of rising to the surface again eventually

 

[Pickman's model]

I still think brexit is economic self harm on a massive scale ( the tiresomely pragmatic me side) but in scrabbling around for positives out of this fuck up, I am happy to see the Tory filth being publicly eviscerated at every juncture. Like turds in a sewer, they have a habit of rising to the surface again eventually

Yeh but soon they will be bobbing in the south atlantic, re-entering the food chain

 

[not-bono-ever]

Krill substitute for the mighty south Atlantic cetaceans.

A worthy contribution for once in their lives

 

[DexterTCN]

 

[splash]

T

Talk about punching yourself in the face

 

[Ranbay]

Last one



For now

 

[Poi E]

T


Talk about punching yourself in the face

Hur yeah stupid people.

 

[ska invita]

I am happy to see the Tory filth being publicly eviscerated at every juncture. Like turds in a sewer, they have a habit of rising to the surface again eventually

They continue to lead in the polls.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It’s an interesting question, and - I think - very pertinent.

The recent poll commissioned by Channel Four News is positive in this respect.

Since the referendum, there’s been a marked increase in the number of people who see immigration as beneficial.

Wherever we end up, I hope that mood prevails in the years ahead.

Broadly agree, including the hope bit Although I wish that polling companies wouldn't always ask whether immigration is beneficial or not beneficial. I always wonder what it must be like for people fleeing the devastation in the Middle East, making their way through Europe, arriving in Britain and discovering that people are debating whether their involuntary displacement from their homes is good or bad for our GDP.

 

[SpackleFrog]

its not about having it "mastered" its just that people who follow the details of politics - i.e the ins and outs of brexit - tend to more about the those details then those who dont.
A bit like people who follow football know who is doing well in the league, who is banging in the goals, whos been injured for the rest of the season - whilst those who dont follow football wouldn't have a scooby.

Totally disagree again - I know quite a few people who follow football very closely without having a clue about what's going on

As Pickman's has already pointed out, following all the details means very little when most of what is reported is complete nonsense. Just as you're gonna get much better analysis of the football in some papers or media sources than others, so too Brexit.

Imagine if someone told you they read all of the Express, Daily Heil and S*n coverage of Brexit every single day. You wouldn't accept that as evidence they knew the "ins and outs" of Brexit would you?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Good to see a Remoaner showing compassion for those whose livelihoods are threatened by the laws of capitalist development and making an impassioned call to nationalise these two car plants under democratic workers control, in order that both jobs and productive capacity can be kept within the community for generations to come...

Oh no wait it's just someone being a cunt on Twitter.

 

[pocketscience]

Nothing to do with VW being cheating liars causing the arse the fall out of their market share then?
Audi sales down 53%!
WLTP hits sales and profits in Germany
VW deliveries fall on emissions tests and tariffs

Later that month, German automotive industry association the VDA also cited the WLTP as a factor in a 31% fall in year-on-year new passenger car registrations in Germany

No, it's because of those nasty racists.

 

[paolo]

The two issues are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Downturn in business - yep.
Which plants to close? The ones that could end up being problematic with shipping.

If there’s further downturns with the German manufacturers, more of this could happen.

 

[mauvais]

No, it's because of those nasty racists.

Your WLTP quote refers to September sales, which have fallen significantly compared with those a year ago. You present it as if annual sales are down by a third. WLTP introduction has generated a big delay/hold on automotive delivery whilst manufacturers revise their cars, but it's temporary.

 

[pocketscience]

Your WLTP quote refers to September sales, which have fallen significantly compared with those a year ago. You present it as if annual sales are down by a third. WLTP introduction has generated a big delay/hold on automotive delivery whilst manufacturers revise their cars, but it's temporary.

Revise their cars

 

[butchersapron]

As we're just dropping this stuff here:

U.K. Worker Shortage Intensifies as Starting Salaries Climb

Britain’s labor shortage intensified at the start of the fourth quarter as the waning supply of workers from the European Union forced firms to pay more.

Overall candidate availability fell at the quickest pace in nine months in October, according to survey data collected by KPMG and the Recruitment and Employment Confederation. That helped keep starting salary inflation near the fastest in more than three years.

 

[Pickman's model]

Revise their cars

If they fail the exam they're literally done for