Ranbay
The same rules apply
So i can bring back more than 200 Fags and 1L of Cheap Vodka next time i go to Spain.
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
So i can bring back more than 200 Fags and 1L of Cheap Vodka next time i go to Spain.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
It'll be on your visa's terms and conditions once they're agreed between UK and Spain.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Perhaps you could bring this back home and explain why anyone should desire to remain part of a national institution that as a matter of policy punishes countries through sanctions to such an extent that child mortality soars
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What do you mean by 'in principle' here? Why did you add that phrase? The UK was still a member of the IMF and World Bank last I looked. The EU contains many elements of nasty neoliberal thinking and practice (as does the UK), but Brexit as it is being done is also a neoliberal project. And the UK instituted so-called 'austerity', causing a rise in suicides, all on its own accord - no need for encouragement from wider EU institutions, the UK was a pioneer in 'austerity'.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
We simply don't need foreign help, do we, in order to bully people into suicide? We'll do just fine with that after brexit. Maybe even better.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And let's not kid ourselves. A UK outside the EU that elects a left-leaning govt and attempts reforms that threaten the interests of international capital can still be horsewhipped into submission by those interests. It may well be more vulnerable to such pressures and have less room to manoeuvre than it might have had inside the EU.
Because I can understand why many people in practice may prefer to hold their nose and Remain - because their work would suffer, because of family reasons.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Still hearing the idea that the EU might have been kinder to a left leaning government than the big bad scary world will be, tell it to syriza voters.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
The conditions imposed on Greece have got nothing to do with whether the Greeks had a left or a right leaning government they were about making sure the banks got their money back, they would have been the same if Golden Dawn had won not Syriza.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The UK is not in the euro.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy, simply asking how you think this particular action helps any. Pointing out bad things the EU has done isn't enough.
Wales should have left the UK in protest at the action of the British army in Northern Ireland. That's the same logic.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
So your saying they were not given any room for maneuver? Astonishing.
I'm suggesting that it's a specious argument. What does remaining in Europe do for Greece?
The EU's treatment of Greece is evidence of the nature of the EU. How did this evidence affect your decision to vote Remain?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
greece was on its back and the ECB could butt fuck it to its hearts content - and that was very much done to ensure that other countries got the message of what happens if you try to reject their austerity policies.
The Uk is much stronger economically then greece and is more influential ( a comparatively large armed forces and a seat on the UN security council) and - crucially - is not in the Euro. A left leaning government would not be well liked by the EU - but they would have to live with it.
A leftist government outside the Eu would be economically weaker, more isolated and easier to fuck over by the likes of big corporate players and big economies like china, the US and - most significantly - the EU itself.
The Uk is much stronger economically then greece and is more influential ( a comparatively large armed forces and a seat on the UN security council) and - crucially - is not in the Euro. A left leaning government would not be well liked by the EU - but they would have to live with it.
A leftist government outside the Eu would be economically weaker, more isolated and easier to fuck over by the likes of big corporate players and big economies like china, the US and - most significantly - the EU itself.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's part of why I was in favour of remain despite wanting drastic reform of the EU. Same, really, as how I feel about the UK. You don't solve these problems through fragmentation itself - the fragmentation needs to be for something. Currently, Brexit is for what?
Are you saying that the EU's treatment of Greece was part of the reason you voted Remain?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Who wasn't given much room to maneuver the EU or the Greek govt? The EU had some wiggle room yes and did indeed vary the terms of the deal some but at the end of the day, it still prioritised paying back debt over any social/political effect on Greece, (I don't think they made the best call there but don't know about you, they certainly didn't ask me).
The Greek government (and by extension the Greek people) were pretty much fucked and were faced with a choice of the devil or the deep blue sea so they had very little room to maneuver and pretty much had to take what was offered.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
You and others seem obsessed with this question, but it's been answered over and over again. It's also a pointless question to ask remainers because the answer is self evident.
Of course, it's not a question in good faith, it's just a way of establishing a claim that your decision making was superior 'in principle' whilst avoiding discussion of how a leave vote is beneficial in practice.
Ranbay
The same rules apply
How much good faith is there in the repeated demands to show how a Leave vote helps Greece? How obsessed are you and others with this question?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What? This comes as a response to people repeatedly bringing up the plight of Greece as a reason for the UK to leave the EU. It is a fair question to ask those giving this as a reason to ask them how that helps Greece.
My straight answer to you for why I oppose brexit is that it solves none of the problems I want solved (including the plight of Greece, as it happens: withdrawing UK money from the EU pot if anything is likely to hurt Greece even more), while making many of those problems even worse. It has plenty of downside and no upside.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
The point has been made before several times that the EU is virtually impossible to reform but that weakening the EU could make way for a new kind of unity across Europe. If you think having 'less' in the EU pot would hurt Greece I'm not sure you've understood how the conditional lending schemes work.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tosh. Stupid liberal tosh. Give me one occasion when a UK government of any persuasion has attempted such reforms - but you won't cos you can't. Arse.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I said 'if anything'. I'm not talking about lending. I'm talking about direct EU grants. I'm not convinced the UK leaving or staying in the EU makes much difference either way to Greece, but 'if anything' it could slightly impact on the size of those grants in future.
As for reform of the EU being 'virtually impossible', I reject that, in the sense that the EU is some uniquely unreformable thing as opposed to ther things. .
One doesn't necessarily follow from the other. The treatment of Greece by the EU can be a reason to vote Leave, without there being any need to argue that leaving helps Greece.
'I can no longer vote Labour because of the Iraq war.'
'Well how does letting the Tories in help Iraqis?'
That's why it's a specious argument and a cheap rhetorical trick.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
What direct EU grants do you think Greece is getting? And what scale do you think those grants are likely to be on?
The EU is not unique; institutions, particularly institutions with little in the way of democratic structures, are unreformable.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
I love the idea that the EU can be reformed from within. Pig-Fucker asked for the teensiest little splodge of reform to appease the UK away from Brexit.
"Allez vous en."
"Allez vous en."
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Bold Macron outlined ideas for reform recently, but the champion of centrism was snubbed
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