Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I got that the second time but the first time I couldn't get to a GE despite having 3 Tory leadership elections. Bloody Blairites
Another snip from the same Economist piece. They are very pro remain. It makes it more poignant, I think.
Even if this is becoming tldr on my (remainer) part, the point is that it’s not a simplistic issue. Just as much “brexiteers are racist” or “remainers are the elite”. (Hopefully we’ve succeeded, here at least, in shooting those both down).
——- cut and paste odyssey
“A good case to be made for the tedious procedures of the European Union is that they transmute inflammatory political arguments into technical matters to be smoothed away by anonymous, apolitical bureaucrats. Where countries once fought over resources or territory, their membership of a club with a common rulebook channels disputes into lengthy negotiations that result in communiqués nobody reads. Deathly dull, and perhaps a trifle undemocratic. But better than what came before.
Yet there is something self-serving about this narrative. Greece created its own problems, but was largely a bystander while “solutions” were imposed by others.”
Even if this is becoming tldr on my (remainer) part, the point is that it’s not a simplistic issue. Just as much “brexiteers are racist” or “remainers are the elite”. (Hopefully we’ve succeeded, here at least, in shooting those both down).
——- cut and paste odyssey
“A good case to be made for the tedious procedures of the European Union is that they transmute inflammatory political arguments into technical matters to be smoothed away by anonymous, apolitical bureaucrats. Where countries once fought over resources or territory, their membership of a club with a common rulebook channels disputes into lengthy negotiations that result in communiqués nobody reads. Deathly dull, and perhaps a trifle undemocratic. But better than what came before.
Yet there is something self-serving about this narrative. Greece created its own problems, but was largely a bystander while “solutions” were imposed by others.”
not-bono-ever
meh
Is Lexit still a thing?
Flavour
hang the bankers
what do you mean?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
still ??
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Jesus Christ
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
It’s usually infuriating when those guys use the word “solidarity” as often happens at those conferences and summits and shit but that tweet is really something else.
“They have this thing called solidarity”
-Dexter.
“They have this thing called solidarity”
-Dexter.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
At the press conference yesterday Barnier and Rabb said they were not near a solution to the Irish Border.
I would've thought that might mean that the UK is not near a suggestion in reality.
How long do the brexiters need?
Or maybe the solution costs way too much for everybody even them.
I would've thought that might mean that the UK is not near a suggestion in reality.
How long do the brexiters need?
Or maybe the solution costs way too much for everybody even them.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
Yeah I experienced urban's solidarity during the first indyref. We're racists, misogynists and cultists, don't you know...a horrible little country. So get off your holier-than-thou high horse.
And don't try and kid anyone you give a shit about Greece either.
"Solidarity!" came the outraged cries from brexiters. lol. As long as they live in the same state obviously. Otherwise you'll cut them loose and look out for yourselves only. Fuck off.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I’m really confused here, which state am I in and who am I cutting loose?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
most of the people here you demand with a shaking bottom lip should be ashamed of themselves were broadly supportive of scots indy. I recall you personally coming under some stick, was it for your unthinking support for dodgepot WoS? I think it was.
in any case despite your whining its pretty clear even to 'hard headed realists' at the Economist that greece has been treated very shabbily indeed. The misuse of the idea of solidarity was probably quite deliberate on the part of Tusk, you however are just thick enough to imagine that debt slavery for the working classes and high fives for the banks is a form of solidarity
On top of this, Horatio lives in scotland. So you tilt once more at the imaginary foe, only to fall off your horse.
first order projection. Unfortunately you are talking to people who care about other people rather than nation states so concern for greece's working classes is unfeigned. You don't think like that, its indivisible 'we' 'us' you' 'them' . All wrapped up in the label name for a country. You reason like a child dexter.
in any case despite your whining its pretty clear even to 'hard headed realists' at the Economist that greece has been treated very shabbily indeed. The misuse of the idea of solidarity was probably quite deliberate on the part of Tusk, you however are just thick enough to imagine that debt slavery for the working classes and high fives for the banks is a form of solidarity
On top of this, Horatio lives in scotland. So you tilt once more at the imaginary foe, only to fall off your horse.
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DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
You're in the UK...you understand the difference between states and countries, yes?I’m really confused here, which state am I in and who am I cutting loose?
I'm perfectly aware of where you come from.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
So this tirade of yours about me wanting to cut loose everyone that’s not in the same state as me, did you get this from something i actually said or is it simply true because I voted leave? And if it’s the latter, does the same apply to everyone that voted to break up the union? If not, why not?
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
yawn
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DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
You called me out.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Correct
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
That that WoS cunt is even tolerated by the Yes movement is a fucking disgrace, after his Hillsborough comments.
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
He's worth 10 of your lot
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's wicked to mock the afflicted
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Another snip from the same Economist piece. They are very pro remain. It makes it more poignant, I think.
Even if this is becoming tldr on my (remainer) part, the point is that it’s not a simplistic issue. Just as much “brexiteers are racist” or “remainers are the elite”. (Hopefully we’ve succeeded, here at least, in shooting those both down).
——- cut and paste odyssey
“A good case to be made for the tedious procedures of the European Union is that they transmute inflammatory political arguments into technical matters to be smoothed away by anonymous, apolitical bureaucrats. Where countries once fought over resources or territory, their membership of a club with a common rulebook channels disputes into lengthy negotiations that result in communiqués nobody reads. Deathly dull, and perhaps a trifle undemocratic. But better than what came before.
Yet there is something self-serving about this narrative. Greece created its own problems, but was largely a bystander while “solutions” were imposed by others.”
Good attempt to bridge the divide and fair play to you but the sentence "Greece created its own problems" gives the game away a bit - this is still a fiercely elitist and bigoted analysis.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
As Pickman's model has pointed out this is factually wrong, but it's also dangerously naive. The EU, IMF, WTO etc are both tools which capital and governments have used to help enforce neo-liberalism. They are mechanisms for capital and states to remove power from labour by devolving power to technocratic institutions. Sometimes there will be squabbles between capital, national governments and these technocratic multi-national institutions over the size of their space at the table - as in Greece where the mechanisms of the EU (and IMF) were used to disciple and bring the Greek government into line - sometimes they will all line up together - as in austerity implemented in Ireland.
To see the EU, IMF, World Bank etc as apolitical is absurd. These institutions are the allies of capital. The World Bank just recently called for a roll back of employment rights under the same principle that is being used to defend the EU - because it would be good for the economy.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
You could just acknowledge that you said something very daft and that tweet has reminded everyone how daft it was, and it would probably all be over now.
Lots of the people here who care about Greece also care about Scotland's right to self determination. Don't you care about Britain's right to self determination?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
So anyway, you’re not going to answer my question obviously so I’m going to try and explain to you the general reasons that Indy voters(a third of them, as far as we can tell from polling) voted leave- People who took comparisons to Norway further than just “they are cool and Scandinavian” and thought about Norway’s relationship with the EU, the benefits of EFTA as opposed to full membership etc. People that argued we weren’t voting for independence because we think Scottish politicians are better than English ones, but rather because the whole country needs a break from the status quo or to “break the lockjam” as put by the one SSP candidate that got his deposit back in the Highlands, John Aberdein(who like Carmichael after him really fucking utilised the power of the Weel Kent Face!!- /a very Scottish derail). The idea that vote Yes wasn’t just for the Scottish working class, but that it would trigger real change for working class people all over Britain- indeed many of us welcomed the news that English folks were asking for more devolution after the Indy ref- though we were in fairness drowned out by Yes voters slagging off the English for the same, I guess that schism just became more prominent after brexit. People that really got into thinking critically about our relationship with local and national government and the value of making sure the people we need to challenge are a bit closer to home during Indy- people who took the idea of civic nationalism and ran with it, and applied it to our relationship with the EU as well as Westminster.
I heard stuff like “the status quo is crumbling” again and again from fellow leave voters. Aidan Moffat for example suggested he couldn’t understand the logic of voting remain if you were pro Indy in the week prior to the vote, though it appears he bottled it since then and has been mostly saying we need to stop Brexit.
So this is what the character of Yes/Leave was as far as I can tell, drawn from every Yes voter that’s ever spoken to me about it and a few remain- with- nose- held types as well. it’s not about cutting people loose any more than Yes was about hating the English. I was as honest as possible about my family members that voted leave- , this is what I’ve heard from Yes voters that voted leave, I honestly don’t have another story to tell at present anyway!
I’m not intelligent enough to really say how relevant all of the above is, but that’s where people seemed to be going and I’ll always say it was the Yes campaign that ultimate led me to vote Leave, if Indy hadn’t had happened I probably wouldn’t have even given the Brexit vote much of a thought- that and helping house refugees here in Orkney and being a one person aid effort on this wee isle, I can’t put an X next to a statement suggesting I support the EU given the responsibility they have for the refugee crisis and deaths in the med- this minor responsibility is pretty much the one thing I’ve been able to do politically in years being a care worker and a single mum, time constraints etc so while we are on the subject of me not giving a shit about anyone outside of the U.K. I was “giving a shit” about that long before I considered the Brexit question so I’m pretty fucking sure I’m not being dishonest here at all. I’ve put a fair amount of energy into giving a shit about what happens in the med, if I’m not doing enough it’s cause I’m not really sure how to do any better, without contributing to stuff that’s probably ultimately harmful like those Trump picnics- in fact carework is also what I’ve been doing in the event of not being sure how to be of use politically cause the left always gave me the dry heaves from a young age- though I could never confidently critique it. How to be practically of use, in some way? That’s pretty much my motivation behind anything, so again going back to the “break the lockjam” argument. And I don’t think that’s niche, you only have to look at the increased turnout for both refs to see that a lot of people might be a fair bit more interested in actually answering questions than they are in choosing between different representatives of the same shite. And for comparison look at the US, Trump won when the turnout was 50 per cent or thereabouts. Yet Trump/Brexit are so often mentioned in the same breath- Yes, I know there’s a rump section of the leave vote you can compare to the Trump phenomenon, and we’ve seen how much trouble they can cause after the sickening rise in racist attacks post Brexit. But where did all these “new voters” come from? If they were so enamoured by the promises of Nigel Farage, why did they not back UKIP before? And why was UKIP not the next logical step at the subsequent GE to ensure THE DEMANDS OF VOTE LEAVE were met? Why the fuck did the one party that stuck doggedly to the Vote Leave manifesto see a massive crash in their polling after Brexit? Your simplistic analysis of recent events just doesn’t add up.
And I’m calling you out cause I think your shite is harmful for the Yes movement too. Wonderful Scots trying to get away from racist English? Why would you do this? Line up behind project fear like that, like you don’t care how low you sink. Is the Yes movement really so fucking fragile that we have to get behind soft remain voting Tories now? It’s not just you though, it’s everywhere I look up here. I am fucking sick of it, and the Scottish left in general. Don’t trust them. If I seem particularly angry at you, it’s unfortunate as the Scottish Left isn’t massive on urban!
I could have just as easily abstained from the Brexit vote, I didn’t know until the day what I would do- I’ve never felt strongly affiliated to any party or movement, or “Lexit” so... “my lot”- it’s just fucking people. That’s about as specific as I can get. The working class, whether they agree with me or not, that old cliche, aye.
I’m a bit nervous about posting this illiterate shite but here goes
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I didn’t say that, but you can’t expect to post stuff and not ever have anyone comment on the content of your posts.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I did try and respond in good faith but I suppose it was difficult as so much of what you have said has really pissed me off. This is coming from a fellow Yes voter, do you really not take any of it in? Or is it just me wanting to Brand you a racist?
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
I misread your post, I'll reply in a while.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Today I visited a country that is not in The customs union with the EU, yet has an open border with the EU.
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