Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
ah, i thought it might be the urban who preached the crusade at clermont.6th.
69 to go
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Was there a "left" consensus on "freedom of movement"? What do you mean by left, by freedom of movement?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh before we get onto this left consensus and what is meant by that we might consider why we would wish to discuss something someone claims to have 'felt' in 'pubs and parties': are we to move forwards on the basis of what one person claims to have felt when drink's been taken? and that's before we wonder which pubs, which parties, in what company and so on. house built on sand.
sealion
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive
'Living in London, I could feel — at every pub & party — the left consensus turning against Freedom of Movement'
He sounds like a barrel of laughs.
bimble
floofy
i get the feeling maybe people don't know how to read twitter links, as all replies so far are just to laugh at the first bit, about him going to pubs. 
Here's the whole thing, just in case anyone's interested in engaging with the content of it.
"Sometimes, the turn was imperceptible: my peers make the case for Brexit as a "break with neoliberalism" with the implicit sacrifice of Freedom of Mov't. In other words, migrants are sacrificed at the altar of British socialism. Eg) Why the Left Should Embrace Brexit
Other times, this turn was manifest & vocal: the Freedom of Mov't, they claim, was a ploy to pursue cheap labour from abroad — simply cloaked in EU rhetoric of solidarity of cosmopolitan progress.
Eg)
Of course, they are not alone. Across Europe, left parties — and associate intellectuals like Wolfgang Streeck — have become skeptical, if not hostile, to the freedom of movement of workers across the continent.
The turn away from 'open borders' dismays me in many ways.
The first is moral: at a time when a changing climate will rapidly increase migration, restricting the freedom of movement seems like an obvious step in the wrong direction
The second is cultural: at a time when the far right is resurgent — promoting blood & soil ethno-nationalism — the left should be making the case for cosmopolitanism. Instead, many on the left reject it wholesale as just another neoliberal bromide.
The third is logical: as @n_srnck has pointed out, concern for domestic wages could — just as easily — imply that women should stay out of the workforce, as well. Why, exactly, must be pick on migrants — the most vulnerable population?
But perhaps most dismaying is the shallow view of history. Critics of FoM argue that — b/c it benefits capital — it must be stopped. But this betrays a fundamental misreading of capitalism — and a simplistic "enemy of my enemy is my friend" style of reasoning
Capitalism is not "all bad." It propels us into the future — raising standards of living, destroying feudal arrangements, driving tech progress — while trapping us in immiseration.
In a word, it creates the conditions for its own demise — such was Marx's contention.
Freedom of Movement is perhaps the best example. It helps capital to pursue cheap labour, for sure — but it also unites working populations, build ties across the int'l proletariat, and creates the conditions for their challenge to an int'l class of capitalists
The challenge, then, is not to move backward — toward harder borders. But to move forward: to regulate labour markets in order to strengthen that int'l proletariat and deepen int'l solidarity. In short, restriction migration is not only short-sighted — blind to the nationalism & xenophobia that flourish in a hard-border world — it is also reactionary: it moves us further away from a socialist future than closer to it.
Some observers, like @ryanlcooper, have argued that — despite these econ. benefits — mass migration may strengthen the hand of the right, promoting more nativism, not less.
But this is a massive abdication of responsibility. Since when did we, on the left, take 'nativism' as an exogenous variable — and not something that, through a campaign of consciousness-raising, we transform into solidarity?
Such is the challenge ahead. For a left nationalism — that attacks foreign workers in the name of protecting them, that closes borders in the name of international solidarity — is not a left that I recognize at all."
Here's the whole thing, just in case anyone's interested in engaging with the content of it.
"Sometimes, the turn was imperceptible: my peers make the case for Brexit as a "break with neoliberalism" with the implicit sacrifice of Freedom of Mov't. In other words, migrants are sacrificed at the altar of British socialism. Eg) Why the Left Should Embrace Brexit
Other times, this turn was manifest & vocal: the Freedom of Mov't, they claim, was a ploy to pursue cheap labour from abroad — simply cloaked in EU rhetoric of solidarity of cosmopolitan progress.
Eg)
Of course, they are not alone. Across Europe, left parties — and associate intellectuals like Wolfgang Streeck — have become skeptical, if not hostile, to the freedom of movement of workers across the continent.
The turn away from 'open borders' dismays me in many ways.
The first is moral: at a time when a changing climate will rapidly increase migration, restricting the freedom of movement seems like an obvious step in the wrong direction
The second is cultural: at a time when the far right is resurgent — promoting blood & soil ethno-nationalism — the left should be making the case for cosmopolitanism. Instead, many on the left reject it wholesale as just another neoliberal bromide.
The third is logical: as @n_srnck has pointed out, concern for domestic wages could — just as easily — imply that women should stay out of the workforce, as well. Why, exactly, must be pick on migrants — the most vulnerable population?
But perhaps most dismaying is the shallow view of history. Critics of FoM argue that — b/c it benefits capital — it must be stopped. But this betrays a fundamental misreading of capitalism — and a simplistic "enemy of my enemy is my friend" style of reasoning
Capitalism is not "all bad." It propels us into the future — raising standards of living, destroying feudal arrangements, driving tech progress — while trapping us in immiseration.
In a word, it creates the conditions for its own demise — such was Marx's contention.
Freedom of Movement is perhaps the best example. It helps capital to pursue cheap labour, for sure — but it also unites working populations, build ties across the int'l proletariat, and creates the conditions for their challenge to an int'l class of capitalists
The challenge, then, is not to move backward — toward harder borders. But to move forward: to regulate labour markets in order to strengthen that int'l proletariat and deepen int'l solidarity. In short, restriction migration is not only short-sighted — blind to the nationalism & xenophobia that flourish in a hard-border world — it is also reactionary: it moves us further away from a socialist future than closer to it.
Some observers, like @ryanlcooper, have argued that — despite these econ. benefits — mass migration may strengthen the hand of the right, promoting more nativism, not less.
But this is a massive abdication of responsibility. Since when did we, on the left, take 'nativism' as an exogenous variable — and not something that, through a campaign of consciousness-raising, we transform into solidarity?
Such is the challenge ahead. For a left nationalism — that attacks foreign workers in the name of protecting them, that closes borders in the name of international solidarity — is not a left that I recognize at all."
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
An oxbridge boy and a a leading member of Vanis Varoufakis' pro-eu party. Worthless from second tweet onwards: " migrants are sacrificed at the altar of British socialism".
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
I can.
He links to the jacobin article about lexit that doesn't even mention FoM or immigration
He mentions the Germen left group Aufstehen that aren't eurosceptic or against the EU
He links to shock horror articles in the Graun about climate migration and Tommy Robinson folk who can hardly be discribed aa the left
So we're left with (as Pickman's model rightly points out) the left consensus he gets from down the pub.
Where was that?
I can recall people in favour of leaving the EU challenging the EU's definition of freedom of movement, the practicalities of FoM within the EU for those people unfortunate enough to have it forced on them - but not challenging freedom of movement par se.
here for example
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sealion
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You haven't seen that argument put forward on here at all. Therein lies a huge part of your problems. Are you oxbridge too?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. i have pointed out his arguments are founded on something the reality of which is questionable. this undermines anything built on this base.
bimble
floofy
I'm not oxbridge no. I'm sure there were plenty of posts about how brexit's an opportunity for this country to turn away from neoliberalism and also how reduced migration would be good as it will push up pay for british workers? Maybe thats different, I don't get how.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i am not laughing. you asked what people thought about the reasoning. i get the feeling maybe you don't know how to reason.i get the feeling maybe people don't know how to read twitter links, as all replies so far are just to laugh at the first bit, about him going to pubs.
Here's the whole thing, just in case anyone's interested in engaging with the content of it.
sealion
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive
Have you ever been in a pub, cafe or anywhere else where you have felt the left consensus turning against Freedom of Movement ?
Genuine question bimble
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The arrogance to assume that what you and your mates represent is 'the left consensus' And as if we don't know who his post-oxbridge mates are. Many remainers were surprised post-refereundum that they were not and didn't represent the entirety of society. But i thought, i thought...they stuttered.
bimble
floofy
I don't really go to pubs or parties much recently tbh. Anything else personal about me, like what primary school i went to etc that's important here?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
cafes, do you do to cafes? sealion didn't ask about parties, btw
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
the reason people are focussing on the first post is becausei get the feeling maybe people don't know how to read twitter links, as all replies so far are just to laugh at the first bit, about him going to pubs.
Here's the whole thing, just in case anyone's interested in engaging with the content of it.
you can't have a consensus change if the consensus doesn't in fact exist.
so if that doesn't exist the rest of the thread's not worth bothering with. and the basis for the belief in the reality of this consensus is yer man's feelings in pubs and parties. not articles in papers. not videos on youtube. not anything you can touch or watch. just his feelings.
whole thing's cobblers.
mx wcfc
Well-Known Member
I have been at meetings where self declared communists have expressed views to the effect that FoM should be stopped completely as it is simply a ploy by capital to keep wages down. They didn’t hold the consensus though.
bimble
floofy
ok. I posted it because it seemed to reflect my impression from reading this here thread, maybe i'm wrong but i thought the 'consensus' (sort of if you can call it that) on here was tending to match up with what he said he's noticed. But, I get stuff wrong all the time and not important anyway, forget it.
sealion
Conformity is the last refuge of the unimaginitive
I'm not surprised if that's what silly bollox on twitter and his mates get up to
Nice try. You post allsorts on here about yourself and personal life etc, which i have no interest in and is of no importance to me.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
are they though? Or is it the system? I lean to a systemic analysis which I thought you did.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
1 demerit :-p
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
ACAB is a systemic analysis - it's the system that produces these people, it can do nothing but. There can be no substantive fightback by individual coppers because a) that's not what the system is for or produces b) the wider system relies on the sub-system of policing to operate as it does. Therefore, despite any personal niceness - and there are plenty of nice coppers - the system must prevail and they must take up and play their role in it. Therefore ACAB. Until the social functions that state policing have enclosed from wider society are returned by popular collective action and the specialised skills they have developed are democratised then ACAB.
Will that do?
(God what boring crap)
gosub
~#
How to prepare if the UK leaves the EU with no deal
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Govt lays bare consequences of 'no deal' to people of UK
Credit card warning in UK's 'no-deal' plans
__________________________________________________________________________________________
24/ 25 documents.
"Stockpiles of at least six weeks' supply of medicines will be held, with urgent medicines airlifted in to the UK to avoid lengthy delays at road, rail and sea borders" - Cabotage isn't a Commission thing - its an industry thing
_______________________________________________________________________________________
ARTICLE 50 EXTENSION ! PLEASE
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Govt lays bare consequences of 'no deal' to people of UK
Credit card warning in UK's 'no-deal' plans
__________________________________________________________________________________________
24/ 25 documents.
"Stockpiles of at least six weeks' supply of medicines will be held, with urgent medicines airlifted in to the UK to avoid lengthy delays at road, rail and sea borders" - Cabotage isn't a Commission thing - its an industry thing
_______________________________________________________________________________________
ARTICLE 50 EXTENSION ! PLEASE
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Project fear extends unto our cabbages now eh?. Not going to work.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think it might be a little more radical than an article 50 extension.How to prepare if the UK leaves the EU with no deal
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Govt lays bare consequences of 'no deal' to people of UK
Credit card warning in UK's 'no-deal' plans
__________________________________________________________________________________________
24/ 25 documents.
"Stockpiles of at least six weeks' supply of medicines will be held, with urgent medicines airlifted in to the UK to avoid lengthy delays at road, rail and sea borders" - Cabotage isn't a Commission thing - its an industry thing
_______________________________________________________________________________________
ARTICLE 50 EXTENSION ! PLEASE
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