Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[redsquirrel]

I’m sure you’re just venting, as I have done here too... but the 2nd vote was instigated by Ireland, with locally proposed amendments. Not unanimously supported, sure, but the EU couldn’t force anything even if they wanted to. They just don’t have the jurisdiction.

Do you also think that Greece wasn't forced to implement a series of political reforms that increased poverty? That the IMF doesn't force privatisations/the opening up of markets on countries?

For god's sake are you really this naive/silly to make legal jurisdiction a necessity of political force? Read a book, watch a documentary, look out the bloody window.

 

[Raheem]

For god's sake are you really this naive/silly to make legal jurisdiction a necessity of political force?

That would be absurd. But it is a necessity of what passes for democracy.

 

[hot air baboon]

the trick is that its outsourcing where you still get to actually keep your job / salary / social position & other perquisites - unlike the sort they impose on the regular workforce - or even with the possibility of a nice lucrative sinecure in a lovely glass plated palace in Brussels as a reward for failure & / or faithful service ( "Lord" Kinnock & his various family members ). The widening & ever more perilous chasm between governed & those doing the governing & their payroll / patronage network is surely paved with generous pension provisions

 

[redsquirrel]

That would be absurd. But it is a necessity of what passes for democracy.

Only if you limit democracy to what is permitted by the state.

Wildcat strikes may be illegal but are rarely undemocratic.

EDIT: And NoXion's whole point was that the EU's use of force to push for a second referendum was an example of it's anti-democratic politics

 

[Raheem]

Only if you limit democracy to what is permitted by the state.

Wildcat strikes may be illegal but are rarely undemocratic.

EDIT: And NoXion's whole point was that the EU's use of force to push for a second referendum was an example of it's anti-democratic politics

So the question is what force you or Noxion thinks the EU exerted to push for a second referendum. My point would be that, whatever it was, they needn't have bothered because the Irish government had decided to have one in any case. But where member states have decided to stand by the results of a referendum (France and the Netherlands in the noughties, plus, so far, the UK) the EU has not used any sort of force against them, AFAIK. What sort of force are we imagining?

 

[redsquirrel]

The result of the referendum's on the constitution on France and the Netherlands weren't "stood by", they were circumvented by Lisbon Treaty, in what is an excellent example of both the anti-democratic nature of the EU and the soft force it uses.

In the case of Ireland the fact that the significant proportion of the Irish establishment and capital were aligned with the EU doesn't mean that there wasn't force. Holding a referendum repeatedly until you get the "right" result and linking the passage of treaty to "financial support" is a pretty good example of force.

 

[mauvais]

Not that I think this is really relevant in this instance, but minority self-determination is not an automatic feature of democracy. If the exit of any member of a union is a threat to the larger body, then 'democracy' would probably entail action to try and prevent that. For instance that you can't establish a breakaway state in your garden is not a sign that the UK is anti-democratic.

It's easy to frame secession in terms of the leaver's right to choose but it has far broader impact. Now obviously I don't actually think the people of the EU have been consulted in what to do about Ireland/NL/Brexit, but if they were, what do you think democratically derived terms would look like?

 

[redsquirrel]

You do realise that you've just made the actions of the French state in Algeria etc, the British State in India (and plenty of other points), Turkish/Iraqi government in Kurdistan, etc "democratic".

 

[Pickman's model]

Not that I think this is really relevant in this instance, but minority self-determination is not an automatic feature of democracy. If the exit of any member of a union is a threat to the larger body, then 'democracy' would probably entail action to try and prevent that. For instance that you can't establish a breakaway state in your garden is not a sign that the UK is anti-democratic.

It's easy to frame secession in terms of the leaver's right to choose but it has far broader impact. Now obviously I don't actually think the people of the EU have been consulted in what to do about Ireland/NL/Brexit, but if they were, what do you think democratically derived terms would look like?

What about the corrupt creation of a union? Democratic??

 

[mauvais]

You do realise that you've just made the actions of the French state in Algeria etc, the British State in India (and plenty of other points), Turkish/Iraqi government in Kurdistan, etc "democratic".

Sure - at least, potentially. I've never said it was a good thing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure - at least, potentially. I've never said it was a good thing.

Soz do you actually know anything about India under British rule?

 

[Raheem]

In the case of Ireland the fact that the significant proportion of the Irish establishment and capital were aligned with the EU doesn't mean that there wasn't force.

Well, no, but that's missing the point. What it means is that the narrative under which the Irish government was compelled by Brussels to hold a second referendum under duress is a false one.

This IMO is a central problem with the rump left leave case. It relies massively on ascribing the general failings and limitations of Western democracy to the EU. Of course, the EU isn't simply a spectator in the world, but it also isn't the font of all its dark power.

 

[kabbes]

This IMO is a central problem with the rump left leave case. It relies massively on ascribing the general failings and limitations of Western democracy to the EU. Of course, the EU isn't simply a spectator in the world, but it also isn't the font of all its dark power.

It isn’t the source but it is a considerable enabler.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Well, no, but that's missing the point. What it means is that the narrative under which the Irish government was compelled by Brussels to hold a second referendum under duress is a false one.

This IMO is a central problem with the rump left leave case. It relies massively on ascribing the general failings and limitations of Western democracy to the EU. Of course, the EU isn't simply a spectator in the world, but it also isn't the font of all its dark power.

It doesn’t rely on that at all but this suggestion, imagined or otherwise seems central to your own arguments on here as it often comes up in your posts. Just because I want to ditch the EU doesn’t mean I want to keep the House of Lords.

Cheers, The Rump Left

 

[Raheem]

It doesn’t rely on that at all but this suggestion, imagined or otherwise seems central to your own arguments on here as it often comes up in your posts. Just because I want to ditch the EU doesn’t mean I want to keep the House of Lords.

There's some sort of misunderstanding here. I haven't accused anyone of hypocrisy and I don't think anyone's opinion about the House of Lords is immediately relevant. What I am saying is that if you can't formulate a case for leave without resorting to a cartoonish distortion of reality where the EU is Mordor, then you're not treating the question with due seriousness.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

There's some sort of misunderstanding here. I haven't accused anyone of hypocrisy and I don't think anyone's opinion about the House of Lords is immediately relevant. What I am saying is that if you can't formulate a case for leave without resorting to a cartoonish distortion of reality where the EU is Mordor, then you're not treating the question with due seriousness.

So stop doing that then!

 

[Raheem]

So stop doing that then!

Listen, if you've got something else I'm all ears. But don't just make out there's a broad and sophisticated case being made that I'm simply refusing to hear. Indulge me.

 

[NoXion]

There's some sort of misunderstanding here. I haven't accused anyone of hypocrisy and I don't think anyone's opinion about the House of Lords is immediately relevant. What I am saying is that if you can't formulate a case for leave without resorting to a cartoonish distortion of reality where the EU is Mordor, then you're not treating the question with due seriousness.

Do you deny that the EU is an instrument of the ruling classes?

 

[Humirax]

If anywhere will be Mordor it's gonna be a post-brexit Britain with a Tory government

 

[Humirax]

Many of her majesty's loyal subjects already have something of the ork about them if you ask me, which is why we are in this mess in the first place.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Listen, if you've got something else I'm all ears. But don't just make out there's a broad and sophisticated case being made that I'm simply refusing to hear. Indulge me.

You’ve gone through several versions of your argument that the Fourth Railway Package isn’t in place to enable privatisation of rail services and make renationalistion of said services near enough impossible at a time that even the NHS is under threat from every angle , you seem to think suggesting an institution in the western world is neoliberal = verging on conspiracy theory. Except, you probably wouldn’t spend an entire year defending the Tories from similar accusations.
You’ve been indulged for quite some time now, I can’t be arsed. Sorry.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Having written that tense reply, I’ve now minded on myself and Raheem always seem to chat during the wee hours. I remember being sat reading the FRP during a nightshift. Maybe that’s the real reason for lack of solidarity eh Raheem?

 

[redsquirrel]

Well, no, but that's missing the point. What it means is that the narrative under which the Irish government was compelled by Brussels to hold a second referendum under duress is a false one

The fact that you seem to only be able to conceive of force being used against a government rather than labour gives an accurate picture of your politics. In the case of Ireland both the EU, Irish capital and the Irish state used force to get their way. At other times there will be conflicting aims between states, capital and the EU, each attempting to use force to achieve those aims.

This IMO is a central problem with the rump left leave case. It relies massively on ascribing the general failings and limitations of Western democracy to the EU. Of course, the EU isn't simply a spectator in the world, but it also isn't the font of all its dark power.

No one has made any such claim, what has happened has been a refusal indulge wet liberals in their collective blindness of the violence of the EU.

 

[Supine]

Redsquirrel discussing the EU earlier

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

View attachment 144592

Redsquirrel discussing the EU earlier

Your post here both suggests you probably shouldn’t be getting into meme craic and that you don’t really understand a single thing Redsquirrel has posted last month or so.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

View attachment 144592

Redsquirrel discussing the EU earlier

Plus it’s like you are trying to rip off Pickmans Model and who even attempts such a thing honestly

 

[xarmian]

I’m beginning to think that, if we do fall off the cliff, that’s the option.

Stand back.

You enforce it if you want. We won’t. The DUP will moan like fuck, but even propping up the Government, I can’t see the gov deciding to placate them with a border enforced Ireland.

Sorry to go back to an older question but it hasn't been answered.

If the UK didn't police its side of the border the WTO 'most favoured nation' rule would require the same treatment for all WTO members at all UK borders. If the EU didn't police the Irish side of the border they would have to open all their borders to all WTO members. No tariffs. No VAT. No regulatory checks. A smugglers' charter. It's inconceivable that the EU would not police the border if necessary.

Jacob Rees-Mogg and Patrick Minford have proposed the UK unilaterally throwing open the borders to solve customs delays at UK ports but Minford admits that it would destroy manufacturing. It would also destroy agriculture. They want to hand even more power to the financial sector but it's not what most Leavers voted for. It is very unlikely to happen because it would make it impossible to negotiate any trade deals. The UK would be negotiating with countries that already have everything they want and no reason to concede anything in return.

The only ways to keep the Irish border open are 1) a very soft Brexit or 2) moving the border to the Irish Sea with a very soft Brexit for Northern Ireland only.

 

[billbond]

View attachment 144592

Redsquirrel discussing the EU earlier

Looks more like Danny Baker

 

[Humirax]

Ofcourse really I'm referring to most of the English as the majority of the rest of Britain knew what what they were doing. Serious lack of critical thinking in England, which is why we not only still have capitalism but a Tory government. I know most of the electorate doesn't vote Tory, but far too many people do and I'll never understand it. The only explanation is a lack of critical thinking.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ofcourse really I'm referring to most of the English as the majority of the rest of Britain knew what what they were doing. Serious lack of critical thinking in England, which is why we not only still have capitalism but a Tory government. I know most of the electorate doesn't vote Tory, but far too many people do and I'll never understand it. The only explanation is a lack of critical thinking.

No it isn't

Have a look at eg brinton