Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
not-bono-ever
meh
not-bono-ever
meh
Hmmmmm... I though you meant as a stamp. oops.
Its just the Eire thing is a debate .
anyway
Its just the Eire thing is a debate .
anyway
toblerone3
Grrrrr
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Remains to be seen, tbf.
New topic.
The two key social structures that seem to most grant prosperity to the people of a nation are (1) as democratic a political structure as possible; and (2) the ability for individuals to directly prosper as a result of their own labour rather than their labour being abstracted by rent seekers. It seems to me that both these structures are undermined for Britain by her being within the EU. The first is hopefully clear enough not to need much justification. The second is because the EU smooths the path for multinationals to trample the little guy.
The two key social structures that seem to most grant prosperity to the people of a nation are (1) as democratic a political structure as possible; and (2) the ability for individuals to directly prosper as a result of their own labour rather than their labour being abstracted by rent seekers. It seems to me that both these structures are undermined for Britain by her being within the EU. The first is hopefully clear enough not to need much justification. The second is because the EU smooths the path for multinationals to trample the little guy.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
philosophical
Well-Known Member
Possibly the EU democratic structures are a step up from the Democratic structures within the UK. At least there is a debate to be had, or concepts and practices to contemplate.
It is of course reasonable to point out deficiencies in the EU system, but the UK system is in my personal opinion worse.
In terms of the democracy issue, and probably the sovereignty one too, taken by itself it seems to me that the EU system is preferable.
However the result of the referendum suggests that issue is irrelevant now, and the UK will still be in the grip of the established order, which hasn't fundamentally changed during my lifetime, for the foreseeable.
Democracy means transparency, accountability, the ability for representation to translate into action, direct access to the levers of change. These could be a fuckton better in the UK but I’m surprised that anybody could suggest they are better within the EU.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Do you have a wider framework in mind here? In a world of limited resources, international governance is also necessary. Regarding climate change, various other environmental issues, scientific research, etc, etc, international cooperation is the only thing that can save us, and that requires international institutions. You may not think the EU is the right international institution but something like it needs to be there, for things ranging far more widely than just trade.
More generally, devolved democratic accountability is good, mostly better, but only with something above it to avoid tyranny at the local level. I'm not really a good anarchist any more as I can see the need for local street committees to have their powers limited (and guaranteed) by a local council, which has its powers limited by a national government, which has its powers limited by international institutions. As you go up the levels, democratic accountability can become harder. Is that a reason for withdrawal? Does the UK become more democratic with fewer international limits on it? Or does the danger of tyranny at a national level increase? For many countries with living memory of national tyranny - Portugal, Spain, Greece, former Warsaw-pact - joining the EU was seen as, and does genuinely act as, a means of limiting the possibilities of national tyranny. I think people in the UK can be rather complacent in this regard.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Theres merit in the principle of your argument, but for it to be convincing with regards to EU membership we have to look at the EU's record in this area - would you regard how the EU structures have handled governments in Poland and Hungary with some very anti-democratic tendancies, or the situation in Spain with the Catalan referendum, as any kind of indication that the EU and it's laws and structures are the international body to keep member states in check?
No, me neither...
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Really?
The democratic function of the EU in the UK is less than it should be because of an outright refusal from the UK press to actually cover EU politics in any significant way, combined with our insistence on our Prime Minister being the sole arbiter of our agreements via the Council of Ministers.
Other countries in the EU require either their parliament to vote on the issue, or a referendum on it before their president / leader has the right to sign them up to different EU treaties.
That's a democratic deficit of our making not the EUs.
As it is though all policies are subject to significant scrutiny and revision via the democratically elected MEPs, and then the Council of Ministers - ministers or heads of state of each country.
Here we get the Minister decides something, then batters it through parliament using political bribes and bullying, the house of lords occasionally delays it for a bit before backing down, then it becomes law.
So please do explain how it's the EU that has the democratic deficit?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
false logic - its not specifically being part of the EU that leads to this situation - its being part of a system of global capitalism. Leaving the EU still leaves you in that system. Those forces would still apply - but to an even greater degree. frying pan - fire.
Yes - leaving the EU is a prerequisite for Leaving the system of global capitalism - but the latter would take significantly more to achieve (certainly in any way that actually improved people's lives) than a dodgy referendum and/or a left wing labour government - and be considerably more unlikely to happen.
gosub
~#
Seen a few articles in the last 12 hours saying HMG will be ready for no deal Brexit by early next week. FFS. You only gave Deloitte a contract this morning... Mrs May it's almost a text book case of how not to do Brexit (though glad you realise you are doing Brexit). Art 50 extension please
DexterTCN
Troy and Abed in the morning
For what?
His back
It is now beyond doubt that the political class in Westminster and many of their media allies do not accept the EU referendum result. They refuse to acknowledge the wishes of the majority of those who took part in that historic plebiscite of 2016 by voting to leave the European Union. As far as I’m concerned, this is the worst case of Stockholm syndrome ever recorded.
It is equally clear to me that, unless challenged, these anti-democrats will succeed in frustrating the result. Whatever they may claim publicly, this is their ultimate objective. They think nothing of betraying the citizens of Britain.
For months now we have heard the same argument from this bunch: “Leave voters did not know what blah blah.
It is now beyond doubt that the political class in Westminster and many of their media allies do not accept the EU referendum result. They refuse to acknowledge the wishes of the majority of those who took part in that historic plebiscite of 2016 by voting to leave the European Union. As far as I’m concerned, this is the worst case of Stockholm syndrome ever recorded.
It is equally clear to me that, unless challenged, these anti-democrats will succeed in frustrating the result. Whatever they may claim publicly, this is their ultimate objective. They think nothing of betraying the citizens of Britain.
For months now we have heard the same argument from this bunch: “Leave voters did not know what blah blah.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
It's not always easy to distinguish the opinion of an urbanite from an extended quote from Nigel Farage. Which is this?His back
It is now beyond doubt that the political class in Westminster and many of their media allies do not accept the EU referendum result. They refuse to acknowledge the wishes of the majority of those who took part in that historic plebiscite of 2016 by voting to leave the European Union. As far as I’m concerned, this is the worst case of Stockholm syndrome ever recorded.
It is equally clear to me that, unless challenged, these anti-democrats will succeed in frustrating the result. Whatever they may claim publicly, this is their ultimate objective. They think nothing of betraying the citizens of Britain.
For months now we have heard the same argument from this bunch: “Leave voters did not know what blah blah.
It was taken from another site.
I think its the actual columnists comments
But he has near enough said the same via radio today.
Similar threads
