Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[danny la rouge]

My guess is that they almost certainly did not prompt respondents, for this or any other question. As I'm sure you also suspect, truth is that the person/people who devised the survey probably didn't think about these problems at all.

Precisely, so how can they interpret the findings?

 

[teuchter]

This doesn't deal with any of the stuff about what the question actually meant to people. But if I wanted to visualise the response to that multiculturalism question, then this is how I would do it, rather than the bar charts posted earlier. It's based on peoples' responses on the 0-10 scale. 5 being the one taken as 'mixed blessing'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This doesn't deal with any of the stuff about what the question actually meant to people. But if I wanted to visualise the response to that multiculturalism question, then this is how I would do it, rather than the bar charts posted earlier. It's based on peoples' responses on the 0-10 scale. 5 being the one taken as 'mixed blessing'.

View attachment 143651

I agree. That is a good way of showing it.

 

[andysays]

I think the two are interconnected in such a way that being opposed (in very general terms) to one is very likely to mean being opposed to the other. And I do think such a marked split in the responses leave/remain is significant, despite all the problems.

I'm at work ATM and can't be bothered to point out all the assumptions and stereotypes in your thinking, but this is really just a dressed up way of suggesting that Leave voters are basically racist.

 

[isvicthere?]

I'm at work ATM and can't be bothered to point out all the assumptions and stereotypes in your thinking, but this is really just a dressed up way of suggesting that Leave voters are basically racist.

I wouldn't suggest all Leave voters are racist, just every single one of the dozens I've spoken to, who without exception have cited immigration (more often than not from non-EU countries) as their primary reason for voting.

 

[andysays]

I wouldn't suggest all Leave voters are racist, just every single one of the dozens I've spoken to, who without exception have cited immigration (more often than not from non-EU countries) as their primary reason for voting.

At least you're not attempting to dress up your assumption that being concerned about immigration necessarily means being racist

 

[teuchter]

I'm at work ATM and can't be bothered to point out all the assumptions and stereotypes in your thinking, but this is really just a dressed up way of suggesting that Leave voters are basically racist.

This comment suggests that you equate concern about immigration and/or multiculturalism with racism. Not LBJ.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm at work ATM and can't be bothered to point out all the assumptions and stereotypes in your thinking, but this is really just a dressed up way of suggesting that Leave voters are basically racist.

You think I'm wrong? you think there wouldn't be a marked correlation between those responding that they don't like multiculturalism, whatever it is they take it to mean, and those who don't like immigration? I haven't mentioned racism when discussing this survey, btw. That's all your own invention.

It is extremely tiresome, btw, to have to point out again and again and again, that even if I am saying (and I do say this) that a significant number of people voting leave did so for racist reasons, I'm not saying that 'leave voters are basically racist'.

All crows are birds; this is a bird; therefore this is a crow.

 

[teuchter]

You think I'm wrong? you think there wouldn't be a marked correlation between those responding that they don't like multiculturalism, whatever it is they take it to mean, and those who don't like immigration? I haven't mentioned racism when discussing this survey, btw. That's all your own invention.

I think the question is answered here



Of people who see multiculturism as 'good', 13% of them see immigration as 'bad' and 65% see immigration as 'good'.

Of people who see multiculturism as 'bad', 82% of them see immigration as 'bad' and 6% see immigration as 'good'.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the question is answered here

View attachment 143667

Of people who see multiculturism as 'good', 13% of them see immigration as 'bad' and 65% see immigration as 'good'.

Of people who see multiculturism as 'bad', 82% of them see immigration as 'bad' and 6% see immigration as 'good'.

ah. but what do they mean by 'immigration'? it's not like all immigrants are equal, is it. if they were asked about immigrants from e.g. canada, ireland, australia and new zealand do you think the results would be the same as they might for cameroon, indonesia, angola and zimbabwe?

 

[teuchter]

This table should be relevant for anyone who hopes the leave vote marks a rejection of capitalism.

There's pretty much zero difference between remain and leave voters.

 

[Pickman's model]

This table should be relevant for anyone who hopes the leave vote marks a rejection of capitalism.

There's pretty much zero difference between remain and leave voters.

View attachment 143669

has anyone outside your imagination claimed that the referendum in any indicated people's feelings on capitalism?

 

[teuchter]

ah. but what do they mean by 'immigration'? it's not like all immigrants are equal, is it. if they were asked about immigrants from e.g. canada, ireland, australia and new zealand do you think the results would be the same as they might for cameroon, indonesia, angola and zimbabwe?

No.

 

[teuchter]

has anyone outside your imagination claimed that the referendum in any indicated people's feelings on capitalism?

Yes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes.

please expand

 

[DotCommunist]

its been established that the questions are subjectively defined enough to be meaningless and the resultant data deliberately misleadingly displayed. Lets move on unless anyone has any more shonky tailored for audience liegraphs to share?

 

[Ranbay]

please expand

Y e s.

 

[Pickman's model]

Y e s.

 

[isvicthere?]

At least you're not attempting to dress up your assumption that being concerned about immigration necessarily means being racist

I said "immigration" because to quote most of the conversations I've had verbatim would be, shall we say, unedifying.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

its been established that the questions are subjectively defined enough to be meaningless and the resultant data deliberately misleadingly displayed. Lets move on unless anyone has any more shonky tailored for audience liegraphs to share?

I agree that they are subjectively defined enough that you need to be very conservative in interpreting the results. I don't agree that they are meaningless, though. But I'll leave it.

 

[teuchter]

The Ashcroft questions fall short on explaining people's main motivations for voting leave, because in the bit where people are asked to rank their reasons for voting leave, they are only given three statements to choose from, and its entirely possible that their primary reasons weren't covered by those questions. So I agree that bit's somewhat meaningless; it only tells us about the relative importance of the factors the survey asked about. It still contains lots of useful information as long as you understand that there are areas where it doesn't provide information. It tells us that there is very strong belief amongst Leave voters that certain things will be improved after Brexit - job prospects, economic security, border controls and more - even if it doesn't tell us which of those things (or other things not asked about) were most important in their decision.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

its been established that the questions are subjectively defined enough to be meaningless and the resultant data deliberately misleadingly displayed. Lets move on unless anyone has any more shonky tailored for audience liegraphs to share?

Shonky

 

[Poi E]

Australia/NZ informal, apparently. The Neighbours effect. Like people saying no worries. More to come with trade deals with Oz.

 

[kabbes]

tbh whatever the problems with multiculturalism we discuss on here - with analysis from the likes of Kenan Malik - I think we can be pretty confident that a large majority of those responding to that poll weren't thinking in those terms when they were asked about it, and were responding very generally to the idea of people with lots of different cultures living next to one another. Given that, I think the results are very clear-cut.

I also don't like the way the results were presented, btw. But the raw data is clear enough.

They are clear cut but not in the way you mean. It shows that the majority of Brexit voters are in favour of or neutral to multiculturalism.

 

[DexterTCN]

I think it's generally accepted that there was a racist element to the brexit vote.

Some here may not like it...or wrap themselves in contortions to disprove it.

I'm not sure I understand why.

 

[pocketscience]

Like I said, Dexters gotta be a Brexit stooge.
Steve Bannon operative, nailed on.

 

[kabbes]

I think it's generally accepted that there was a racist element to the remain vote.

Some here may not like it...or wrap themselves in contortions to disprove it.

I'm not sure I understand why.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They are clear cut but not in the way you mean. It shows that the majority of Brexit voters are in favour of or neutral to multiculturalism.

Yep, but a very different pattern of distribution, with the vast majority of those who see multiculturalism as an ill voting leave. That is what I meant by 'clear-cut'. The results are consistent with the idea that there exists a racist minority in Britain that voted overwhelmingly leave. Many on this thread have invoked the majority vote as justification for brexit. Well, take that hard core of racists who largely voted leave for racist reasons out of the count and that majority disappears. The idea that this is some grand exercise in democracy is a pretty sick joke.

 

[pocketscience]

Yep, but a very different pattern of distribution, with the vast majority of those who see multiculturalism as an ill voting leave. That is what I meant by 'clear-cut'. The results are consistent with the idea that there exists a racist minority in Britain that voted overwhelmingly leave. Many on this thread have invoked the majority vote as justification for brexit. Well, take that hard core of racists who largely voted leave for racist reasons out of the count and that majority disappears. The idea that this is some grand exercise in democracy is a pretty sick joke.

Does the U75 bubble get to remove the neoliberalists from the remain vote too?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Does the U75 bubble get to remove the neoliberalists from the remain vot too?

The Jim Crow enthusiasts, the people that think saying they looooove multiculturalism gives them an excuse to throw minority groups under the bus when suits....