Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

British people are not allowed to make decisions about their future in case Irish people decide to kill each other in petulance.

The decision has been made.
If Irish people kill people for whatever reason, you say in petulance, then a changed border situation might be a contributory factor.
However if you see the brexit vote as British people making decisions about their future, how do you see the British people taking back control of the land border between Britain and the EU in the future?
I don't criticise you if you have no practical and realistic suggestions to make, nobody else seems to.
I suppose ignoring it is an option.
However if British people living upstream vote to decide to pollute the water travelling downstream to somewhere else it could well be that the reaction is not down to 'petulance'.
The Irish border is now a live issue as a consequence of the British people voting for brexit, not because the Irish have suddenly decided to be petulant. If you don't want to see that as the present reality fine, for others it matters a lot.

 

[sealion]

The Irish border is now a live issue as a consequence of the British people voting for brexit,

Maybe the EU should make us vote again, and again, and again until we get it right, just like they did in Ireland.

 

[gosub]

tbh if we knew then what we know now about who'd actually be dealing with brexit there'd have been a resounding victory for remain

Bollocks Just shows up how clueless they are. And probably were on the previous treaties... Most definitely NOT an argument for the status quo especially if that now means airbrushing away the largest plebiscite in UK history.

If this shit is beyond them (and it really seems to be) then get government and representive democracy back to something they can handle (though will this shower that probably means fuzzy felts)

 

[kabbes]

The decision has been made.
If Irish people kill people for whatever reason, you say in petulance, then a changed border situation might be a contributory factor.
However if you see the brexit vote as British people making decisions about their future, how do you see the British people taking back control of the land border between Britain and the EU in the future?
I don't criticise you if you have no practical and realistic suggestions to make, nobody else seems to.
I suppose ignoring it is an option.
However if British people living upstream vote to decide to pollute the water travelling downstream to somewhere else it could well be that the reaction is not down to 'petulance'.
The Irish border is now a live issue as a consequence of the British people voting for brexit, not because the Irish have suddenly decided to be petulant. If you don't want to see that as the present reality fine, for others it matters a lot.

If your only practical and realistic suggestion is that the UK has to stay in the EU for ever and ever amen, that's actually neither practical nor realistic. It's just as practical and realistic to say that Ireland should reunite. There's about as much political appetite for both options and both options would solve the problem. Put it in the hands of the Irish people to decide how they want to resolve their Irish disagreements -- either reunite or accept the border that the EU will now impose.

 

[gosub]

If your only practical and realistic suggestion is that the UK has to stay in the EU for ever and ever amen, that's actually neither practical nor realistic. It's just as practical and realistic to say that Ireland should reunite. There's about as much political appetite for both options and both options would solve the problem. Put it in the hands of the Irish people to decide how they want to resolve their Irish disagreements -- either reunite or accept the border that the EU will now impose.

Think you'd need 2 referendums maybe 3..What NI want, what UK want AND what Eire wants. Met a fair few Irish who recognise 6 counties is a sink hole

 

[philosophical]

Maybe the EU should make us vote again, and again, and again until we get it right, just like they did in Ireland.

No.
Brexiters and lexiters and anybody else won.
They need to own it and come up with practical solutions to the issues they have brought on, not leave it to others, not blame others, not mock people who ask legitimate question, but get on with it and make their victory manifest.
A second referendum is not needed, because we are told the result was the will of the people, all those people have to do is make it happen, no biggie is it?

 

[kabbes]

It IS happening.

 

[sealion]

all those people have to do is make it happen

All those people have done there bit by turning up and voting, you know that. It's the politicions that have the task of making it happen, as well you know.

 

[sealion]

No.
Brexiters and lexiters and anybody else won.
They need to own it and come up with practical solutions to the issues they have brought on, not leave it to others, not blame others, not mock people who ask legitimate question, but get on with it and make their victory manifest.
A second referendum is not needed, because we are told the result was the will of the people, all those people have to do is make it happen, no biggie is it?

Why did the Irish have to vote more than once after rejecting the Lisbon treaty ?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Rees-Mogg:

"This is the greatest vassalage since King John paid homage to Phillip II at Le Goulet in 1200."

And he would probably know a lot about vassals tbf.

 

[philosophical]

If your only practical and realistic suggestion is that the UK has to stay in the EU for ever and ever amen, that's actually neither practical nor realistic. It's just as practical and realistic to say that Ireland should reunite. There's about as much political appetite for both options and both options would solve the problem. Put it in the hands of the Irish people to decide how they want to resolve their Irish disagreements -- either reunite or accept the border that the EU will now impose.

You mention reunification, but the nation has never been united as an independent entity, it was a British colony.
So new unification might be a more accurate term.
Any border will not be imposed by the EU, it will be a manifestation of the brexit vote, before the vote there wasn't a border worth calling a border. The impetus is because the UK voted leave.
Maybe leave voters didn't really mean they actually wanted to leave the EU after all and 'regain control' of it's borders, if they are leaving the practicalities to somebody else.
Fine as far as I am concerned.
If stuff moves back and forth freely then presumably that is what brexit means, and if a million EU citizens stroll across an open border to the UK fine also, that is what brexit actually means so it seems.

 

[kabbes]

In what way is it not happening. We leave the EU on 19 March. This isn’t a theoretical exercise.

 

[kabbes]

You mention reunification, but the nation has never been united as an independent entity, it was a British colony.
So new unification might be a more accurate term.
Any border will not be imposed by the EU, it will be a manifestation of the brexit vote, before the vote there wasn't a border worth calling a border. The impetus is because the UK voted leave.
Maybe leave voters didn't really mean they actually wanted to leave the EU after all and 'regain control' of it's borders, if they are leaving the practicalities to somebody else.
Fine as far as I am concerned.
If stuff moves back and forth freely then presumably that is what brexit means, and if a million EU citizens stroll across an open border to the UK fine also, that is what brexit actually means so it seems.

It’s imposed by the EU. If it were up to the British and Irish governments alone — the sovereign governments of the relevant sovereign states — there would be no border. The EU are the ones insisting it be there. They are imposing it. To insist otherwise is to really twist reality to suit your ideology.

 

[philosophical]

Why did the Irish have to vote more than once after rejecting the Lisbon treaty ?

I don't know, probably political shenanigans and manipulation.
It doesn't matter now does it, brexit won, the arguments about the nature of the EU in the past present and future are not as important as those who voted brexit making it happen.
I read here endless stuff about the deficiencies of the EU, and personally I agree with a lot of them, but the UK has voted to leave the EU with all the baggage that goes with that vote, it is now left to the leave voters to sort it out, because they won.
Or maybe some people think that those who didn't vote for it should be the ones to sort out the issues.

 

[gosub]

They've dropped the idea of MRA from the white paper.. Fucking idiots.

They aren't going for a workable Brexit at all

 

[teqniq]

It’s imposed by the EU. If it were up to the British and Irish governments alone — the sovereign governments of the relevant sovereign states — there would be no border. The EU are the ones insisting it be there. They are imposing it. To insist otherwise is to really twist reality to suit your ideology.

He keeps saying the same things over and over again, things which are as you have just demonstrated with one example, not true. We are well into broken record territory here.

 

[Winot]

It’s imposed by the EU. If it were up to the British and Irish governments alone — the sovereign governments of the relevant sovereign states — there would be no border. The EU are the ones insisting it be there. They are imposing it. To insist otherwise is to really twist reality to suit your ideology.

So RoI can leave the EU and all will be fine.

Why do you think they're not doing that?

 

[philosophical]

It’s imposed by the EU. If it were up to the British and Irish governments alone — the sovereign governments of the relevant sovereign states — there would be no border. The EU are the ones insisting it be there. They are imposing it. To insist otherwise is to really twist reality to suit your ideology.

I disagree.
The reality is that the UK want to be separate from the EU.
It is the UK that has voted in effect for a border, not the EU and not the ROI.
To insist otherwise is to twist reality to suit your ideology.

 

[danny la rouge]

it is now left to the leave voters to sort it out,

Is it? Has anyone told them? Because I think everyone is expecting the government to do the sorting.

 

[gosub]

I don't know, probably political shenanigans and manipulation.
It doesn't matter now does it, brexit won, the arguments about the nature of the EU in the past present and future are not as important as those who voted brexit making it happen.
I read here endless stuff about the deficiencies of the EU, and personally I agree with a lot of them, but the UK has voted to leave the EU with all the baggage that goes with that vote, it is now left to the leave voters to sort it out, because they won.
Or maybe some people think that those who didn't vote for it should be the ones to sort out the issues.

Can we have a dislike button please

 

[sealion]

it is now left to the leave voters to sort it out

You keep saying this. Do you not understand how it works ? What power does the voter have in this to be able to make policies ?

 

[not-bono-ever]

I might block this thread. It’s going
Nowhere and there is nothing original apart from the piss taking. Someone drop me a PM when something noteworthy kick starts it. I am fucking sick of it.

 

[philosophical]

Is it? Has anyone told them? Because I think everyone is expecting the government to do the sorting.

Not everyone.

 

[danny la rouge]

Not everyone.

OK, to be more precise, I think most people think the government is responsible for the sorting.

 

[philosophical]

You keep saying this. Do you not understand how it works ? What power does the voter have in this to be able to make policies ?

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't vote for things then?
I fail to see your point.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bollocks Just shows up how clueless they are. And probably were on the previous treaties... Most definitely NOT an argument for the status quo especially if that now means airbrushing away the largest plebiscite in UK history.

If this shit is beyond them (and it really seems to be) then get government and representive democracy back to something they can handle (though will this shower that probably means fuzzy felts)

there are no arguments for the status quo as the status quo is a provisional position which cannot last beyond a year

 

[JimW]

...
It doesn't matter now does it, brexit won, the arguments about the nature of the EU in the past present and future are not as important as those who voted brexit making it happen.
...

I can't get my head round this - the nature of the EU has no relevance to whether or not we should leave it? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[gosub]

If I chip in towards paying a local contractor 72 grand a year and he finally has the decency to ask me 'what colour you want gov? If I said turquoise and it was agreed by the majority it is not down to me to do the fucking painting

 

[sealion]

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't vote for things then?

Nope. We vote and the people in power make the decisions. How difficult is that for you to understand ?

I fail to see your point.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[philosophical]

I can't get my head round this - the nature of the EU has no relevance to whether or not we should leave it? Or am I misunderstanding?

No, not a misunderstanding. The UK has left, the question regarding 'whether or not' has been answered. The nature of the EU is not what the UK has voted to be part of any more.