Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

Nope. We vote and the people in power make the decisions. How difficult is that for you to understand ?

The feeling is mutual.

We vote for those people who wield the power, how difficult is that for you to understand?

 

[Pickman's model]

No, not a misunderstanding. The UK has left, the question regarding 'whether or not' has been answered. The nature of the EU is not what the UK has voted to be part of any more.

whoa there my lovely. the uk HAS NOT left. the decision has been made but the train has not yet departed. as any fule kno the uk does not leave the eu until next year.

 

[kabbes]

I disagree.
The reality is that the UK want to be separate from the EU.
It is the UK that has voted in effect for a border, not the EU and not the ROI.
To insist otherwise is to twist reality to suit your ideology.

Absolutely mental.

 

[kabbes]

The Irish people have voted for a border by not choosing to leave the EU

 

[sealion]

We vote for those people who wield the power, how difficult is that for you to understand?

So why the hell are demanding the voters come up with solutions then ?

 

[teqniq]

If this does indeed piss off the hardcore Brexiters, then it's all to the good imo.

 

[Pickman's model]

I disagree.
The reality is that the UK want to be separate from the EU.
It is the UK that has voted in effect for a border, not the EU and not the ROI.
To insist otherwise is to twist reality to suit your ideology.

soz, the 26 counties voted to remove articles 2 & 3 from the constitution, and if that doesn't recognise the border on the island of ireland i don't know what does. there has never (outside the six counties) been a vote on the border between the two polities in ireland.

 

[philosophical]

whoa there my lovely. the uk HAS NOT left. the decision has been made but the train has not yet departed. as any fule kno the uk does not leave the eu until next year.

Absolutely right, the final leaving has not happened yet technically.
I apologise to you and others for not acknowledging that today the largest plebiscite in British History has not yet been made manifest.

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely right, the final leaving has not happened yet technically.
I apologise to you and others for not acknowledging that today, the largest plebiscite in British History has not yet been made manifest.

the largest plebiscite in british history was made manifest on 23 june 2016. so you're wrong again.

 

[Ranbay]

Where is it! i want to read it!

 

[teqniq]

Where is it! i want to read it!

Do you mean the white paper?

Here (pdf)

 

[philosophical]

soz, the 26 counties voted to remove articles 2 & 3 from the constitution, and if that doesn't recognise the border on the island of ireland i don't know what does. there has never (outside the six counties) been a vote on the border between the two polities in ireland.

Yes, indeed the recognition of a border is also wrapped up in the Belfast agreement, and that agreement describes circumstances where sometime in the future the people living in Ireland might vote for unification.
The removal of articles 2 and 3 from the constitution was made, I believe, in the context of both the ROI and the UK being in the EU.
The brexit vote has changed that context.
The argument here that somehow it is the ROI and the EU who want to usher in the hard border because the UK voted to be a separate entity from the ROI and the EU seems to me to be an argument that wants to alter practical reality in order to avoid the consequence of what brexiters voted for.
I will be criticised for holding that position, but I think none of this present border malarkey would be in play if the UK had not voted for brexit.

 

[magneze]

He keeps saying the same things over and over again, things which are as you have just demonstrated with one example, not true. We are well into broken record territory here.

He's failed the Turing test.

 

[Ranbay]

Do you mean the white paper?

Here (pdf)

Thanks!

 

[andysays]

Yes, indeed the recognition of a border is also wrapped up in the Belfast agreement, and that agreement describes circumstances where sometime in the future the people living in Ireland might vote for unification.
The removal of articles 2 and 3 from the constitution was made, I believe, in the context of both the ROI and the UK being in the EU.
The brexit vote has changed that context.
The argument here that somehow it is the ROI and the EU who want to usher in the hard border because the UK voted to be a separate entity from the ROI and the EU seems to me to be an argument that wants to alter practical reality in order to avoid the consequence of what brexiters voted for.
I will be criticised for holding that position, but I think none of this present border malarkey would be in play if the UK had not voted for brexit.

It's true that there wouldn't currently be an issue if the UK hadn't voted for Leave, but that's quite different from saying, as you have done repeatedly, that Leave voters are responsible for sorting out the issue, or from suggesting, as you have appeared to do, that Leave voters are to blame for problems which may arise after some sort of more substantial border is reestablished.

 

[Ranbay]

it's a bit long!

 

[Pickman's model]

it's a bit long!

have a packet of hobnobs to sustain you while you read it

 

[philosophical]

The Irish people have voted for a border by not choosing to leave the EU

The people in the ROI didn't have a vote.

 

[philosophical]

So why the hell are demanding the voters come up with solutions then ?

Because we are told that the voters knew what they were voting for, but it appears to be a secret.

 

[philosophical]

the largest plebiscite in british history was made manifest on 23 june 2016. so you're wrong again.

OK, we differ as to what 'made manifest' means.
I was agreeing with you that it (leaving) hasn't happened yet, if the term 'made manifest' is not to your taste I will search for a different one next time.

 

[Ranbay]

have a packet of hobnobs to sustain you while you read it

Before Squash? you mad man.

 

[philosophical]

It's true that there wouldn't currently be an issue if the UK hadn't voted for Leave, but that's quite different from saying, as you have done repeatedly, that Leave voters are responsible for sorting out the issue, or from suggesting, as you have appeared to do, that Leave voters are to blame for problems which may arise after some sort of more substantial border is reestablished.

I agree that this is what I am saying.
If it is not the leave voters, or the politicians the leave voters voted in who have to sort out the problems, then who is it down to?
The remain voters, the EU, the ROI?

 

[Winot]

The Irish people have voted for a border by not choosing to leave the EU

Kind of. The EU is a single country (in trade terms). They have chosen to be in it. That means a trade border with any country not in it. The UK has left that country. So if the RoI/UK don’t want a trade border then either the RoI leaves the EU or the UK pretends it’s still in by mirroring trade rules. Looks like the latter is pretty likely to happen.

 

[DotCommunist]

He's failed the Turing test.

And the voight kampffe

 

[andysays]

I agree that this is what I am saying.
If it is not the leave voters, or the politicians the leave voters voted in who have to sort out the problems, then who is it down to?
The remain voters, the EU, the ROI?

It's the responsibility of the UK government to come to some sort of agreement with the EU over the details of how the UK leaves the EU.

I, who am a Leave voter, didn't vote in or for any of the politicians who make up the UK government, so my influence on or responsibility for how they conduct themselves is non-existent. I suspect this is true for a significant % of Leave voters, whereas there is also a significant % of Remain voters who did vote for the current UK government (I don't know what the actual figures are, perhaps someone can enlighten both of us).

If you're really seeking to apportion blame or responsibility to individual voters, I suggest you focus on those whose votes at the 2017 GE left us with the incompetent Conservative government led by Theresa May, though TBH this is a fairly pointless exercise.

 

[philosophical]

It's the responsibility of the UK government to come to some sort of agreement with the EU over the details of how the UK leaves the EU.

I, who am a Leave voter, didn't vote in or for any of the politicians who make up the UK government, so my influence on or responsibility for how they conduct themselves is non-existent. I suspect this is true for a significant % of Leave voters, whereas there is also a significant % of Remain voters who did vote for the current UK government (I don't know what the actual figures are, perhaps someone can enlighten both of us).

If you're really seeking to apportion blame or responsibility to individual voters, I suggest you focus on those whose votes at the 2017 GE left us with the incompetent Conservative government led by Theresa May, though TBH this is a fairly pointless exercise.

Are you saying that as a brexit voter you didn't consider how it might happen, or what the consequences might be, you would leave those details up to the government?
Would you then accept the suggestion that you didn't know what you were voting for, but hoped that somebody else did?

 

[andysays]

Are you saying that as a brexit voter you didn't consider how it might happen, or what the consequences might be, you would leave those details up to the government?
Would you then accept the suggestion that you didn't know what you were voting for, but hoped that somebody else did?

No, I'm not saying that.

But I will say now, in case there's any doubt, that I think you're behaving like a silly twit who is desperate to apportion some sort of blame for something which you don't like on millions of people here on this thread and elsewhere who had the effontary to vote for something they wanted.

You're going to ever more ridiculous lengths and making yourself look like a greater and greater prick, even to many who voted to Remain, but if you want to carry on in this way, be my guest.

 

[sealion]

Because we are told that the voters knew what they were voting for, but it appears to be a secret.

What are your solutions for getting rid of the Eu migrant camps that you voted for ?

 

[kabbes]

The people in the ROI didn't have a vote.

They have a vote every 4 or 5 years.

You’re the one talking about “political will” for unification and the ROI staying in the EU. Political will implies people have a vote.

 

[kabbes]

You're going to ever more ridiculous lengths and making yourself look like a greater and greater prick, even to many who voted to Remain, but if you want to carry on in this way, be my guest.

Word.

I voted remain basically because I couldn’t face the short-medium term quagmire that was inevitable from Brexit — the very thing he is harping on about — but I still think philosophical is the biggest prick on this issue I’ve yet come across. Facing up to practical problems doesn’t mean things are impossible and the problems don’t mean things shouldn’t be done if people want them done.