Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[isvicthere?]

Picking fruit in the hot sun,
I fought the Job Centre and the Job Centre won...

*Awaits avalanche of fruit-related puns*

Strawberry Fields forever unpicked.

 

[gosub]

124,000 jobs going. So much for Labour and their jobs first brexit

This.

Emily Thornberry sparks Labour row after accusing Brexit rebels of 'dishonesty'

She may be right about Mr Umunna's motives BUT for those who have, over the last decade actually looked at how to do Brexit, the Norway route (even as a transition) was the job friendly way of doing it. If we had a political class worth anything, the last two years would have been work towards that and manage expectations accordingly. Instead those views have been marginalised, and we are stuck with working out which of the two groups close minded cunts are the lesser of the two evils, - the ones who would undermine democracy or the ones who would undermine the economy....

 

[gosub]

If the responses to the criticisms of the EU are boring, maybe the criticisms of the EU are boring too. Both sides of the discussion can stop going on about the EU border policies because that's now irrelevant to discussions about how the UK actually 'does' Brexit.

We could talk about the details of how we do the Brexit, how to resolve the tricky problems like the Irish border and so on. But, those who voted remain don't have many solutions for problems they voted to not have in the first place, and most of the Brexit representatives on this thread say it's not Brexiters' problem to solve the problems. Proposed courses of action in response to Brexit include joining residents' associations.

Given the above, what is there left to discuss on this thread?

Only real way to do the Irish border was to renege on GFA, acknowledge we have, and call for UN arbitration. Instead we've just put on the statute book no infastructure ...which is nuts if you have beyond a superfical grasp of what gets checked, (either that or Brexit don't mean Brexit).


In terms of how the UK actually does Brexit, I had hoped people might have responded when I linked to Brexit preparedness - coz chances are one of the click throughs WILL impact on you

 

[philosophical]

Only real way to do the Irish border was to renege on GFA, acknowledge we have, and call for UN arbitration. Instead we've just put on the statute book no infastructure ...which is nuts if you have beyond a superfical grasp of what gets checked, (either that or Brexit don't mean Brexit).


In terms of how the UK actually does Brexit, I had hoped people might have responded when I linked to Brexit preparedness - coz chances are one of the click throughs WILL impact on you

Are you suggesting UN military to manage the physical border?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Mathew and the son the works never done were always picking fruit! The flies round your head you itch in your bed it’s never ever through!

Midges, you know. I was never good at puns.

 

[DotCommunist]

Grapes of wrath

 

[Winot]

In terms of how the UK actually does Brexit, I had hoped people might have responded when I linked to Brexit preparedness - coz chances are one of the click throughs WILL impact on you

Hadn't seen that before as a complete list. Had seen the one that is relevant to my area. We are all horribly aware of the impact - as for the solution, that is up for negotiation, as is the case I imagine for every sector. Trouble is the minutiae of the sector-by-sector negotiation is awaiting the big picture negotiation. And on that we wait.

 

[Pickman's model]

more likely to be a jackson pollock than a detailed illustration

 

[gosub]

Are you suggesting UN military to manage the physical border?

No. But as you move apart, there is a need for border checks and that is a breach of GFA. Arbitration should be done by UN, it was/is an Internationally recognised treaty.
And the venom could have been removed by pointing out this wasn't over concerns about AK47s and Semtex but the bureaucratic necessity over things like horse meat and non CE and kite marked goods

 

[Pickman's model]

kite marked goods

my planned smuggling operation involves flying kites laden with contraband over the border

 

[philosophical]

No. But as you move apart, there is a need for border checks and that is a breach of GFA. Arbitration should be done by UN, it was/is an Internationally recognised treaty.
And the venom could have been removed by pointing out this wasn't over concerns about AK47s and Semtex but the bureaucratic necessity over things like horse meat and non CE and kite marked goods

How do you envisage those border checks in practical terms?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Fuck me that's poor. Are you really that short sighted?
The alternative(s) will be developing over time, as will the EU.

For sure, and I don't want the alternative that the Tories are planning.

 

[Crispy]

the Tories are planning

They are?

 

[not-bono-ever]

my planned smuggling operation involves flying kites laden with contraband over the border

Kites didn't work out too well in Gaza the other week

 

[not-bono-ever]

You know what - the idea of the blue helmets parachuting in to take control this country is becoming increasingly attractive. without the sex and abuse scandals obviously.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't want the alternative that the Tories are planning.

Right. But why does that preclude seeing what's wrong with the EU? And is your whole opposition to what the Tories are planning rooted in re-running in your head a vote that took place 2 years ago? Can't you think of ways you can, I don't know, oppose Tory policies?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Right. But why does that preclude seeing what's wrong with the EU? And is your whole opposition to what the Tories are planning rooted in re-running in your head a vote that took place 2 years ago? Can't you think of ways you can, I don't know, oppose Tory policies?

A) This is the Brexit thread.
B) Brexit hasn't started yet, they are in fact struggling to deliver anything like the things promised and it could well bring them down, so in that sense it is still a live issue.

 

[gosub]

How do you envisage those border checks in practical terms?

weighbridges under each lane and gantries for cameras (number plate/facial re-cog) and transponder readers - so your average experience is straight through an automated system having emailed manifest in advance. Inspection facilities with holding pound for things gone off for testing to be used on suspicious loads and the agreed number of third nation agreed random inspections.

 

[Pickman's model]

Right. But why does that preclude seeing what's wrong with the EU? And is your whole opposition to what the Tories are planning rooted in re-running in your head a vote that took place 2 years ago? Can't you think of ways you can, I don't know, oppose Tory policies?

It's perfectly easy to despise the eu, despise the British government, and still feel remaining a better bet all round than the alternative while opposing a second referendum

 

[SpookyFrank]

weighbridges under each lane and gantries for cameras (number plate/facial re-cog) and transponder readers - so your average experience is straight through an automated system having emailed manifest in advance. Inspection facilities with holding pound for things gone off for testing to be used on suspicious loads and the agreed number of third nation agreed random inspections.

Facial recognition is the modern version of TV licence detector vans. It would lovely for the state if such a thing were possible so they just pretend that it actually is.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's perfectly easy to despise the eu, despise the British government, and still feel remaining a better bet all round than the alternative while opposing a second referendum

I mostly just don't want to sit through the intolerable hullabaloo both sides would create between them during a second referendum.

 

[gosub]

Facial recognition is the modern version of TV licence detector vans. It would lovely for the state if such a thing were possible so they just pretend that it actually is.

It is, its just far from perfect but will only get better

 

[danny la rouge]

A) This is the Brexit thread.

I'm sorry to repeat myself, but once again: I don't support the Tory Brexiteers either. I don't support them, their world view, their plans, their class function, their function in the polity of the state. And that includes the way they are conducting Brexit, and their vision of the shape of a post Brexit UK. That does not preclude me from being critical of the EU. (And to those who think it is still possible to stay in the EU, I say this: regardless of your preference on belonging or not belonging, refusing to brook any criticism of the EU on the grounds that you don't like the Tories is hypocrisy and cowardice at best, and complicity in criminal and anti-human action at worst).

B) Brexit hasn't started yet, they are in fact struggling to deliver anything like the things promised and it could well bring them down, so in that sense it is still a live issue.

Yes, it's a live issue. It's a current affairs issue. And it's perfectly possible to discuss its progress and the Tory handling of it and their vision without wanting to be in one of the two narrowly defined camps the mainstream media wants to pop everyone into. I don't feel I belong to either of the camps, nor do I share their interests. Nor they mine. But I still take an interest in what's going on. (And by the way, regardless of whether or not May in particular, or the Tories in general, are brought down over their handling of Brexit, that doesn't mean Brexit itself will be halted. Who is going to do that? A May replacement isn't going to back out of Brexit. Labour aren't going to back out of Brexit. The Lib Dems aren't going to have and power in the matter. A referendum was held. Remain lost. Brexit is going ahead).

 

[danny la rouge]

It's perfectly easy to despise the eu, despise the British government, and still feel remaining a better bet all round than the alternative while opposing a second referendum

All manner of positions are possible that aren't the polarisation the media (including opinion pollsters, having taken part in many a YouGov poll on the matter) seem to want to portray.

 

[philosophical]

weighbridges under each lane and gantries for cameras (number plate/facial re-cog) and transponder readers - so your average experience is straight through an automated system having emailed manifest in advance. Inspection facilities with holding pound for things gone off for testing to be used on suspicious loads and the agreed number of third nation agreed random inspections.

There are over 200 crossing points so your idea will cost a fortune, will it deal with the movement of individual people, and how about properties that span the border?

 

[gosub]

There are over 200 crossing points so your idea will cost a fortune, will it deal with the movement of individual people, and how about properties that span the border?

No, we have a free movement of people treaty with Eire that pre dates EU, and they ain't in Schengen, so why bother. Cross border property? - You don't get this do you? (possibly willfully) You cant sell jack shit into EUrope that doesn't meet its standards. And the EU can't even start process of saying UK spec is still at EU spec until AFTER we have left....AT which point Mutual Recongnition Agreements (such as Australia did with the EU most likely/sensible path but even that takes time say 18months - the only work around to that was down the EEA EFTA route. During this period UK becomes dumping ground for every shonky and counterfeit good that you can legally sell in EU. This is why Airbus is going mental and Dutch have car industry not to use UK supply - Quality isn't proven to meet EU standards so it can't be used

 

[philosophical]

No, we have a free movement of people treaty with Eire that pre dates EU, and they ain't in Schengen, so why bother. Cross border property? - You don't get this do you? (possibly willfully) You cant sell jack shit into EUrope that doesn't meet its standards. And the EU can't even start process of saying UK spec is still at EU spec until AFTER we have left....AT which point Mutual Recongnition Agreements (such as Australia did with the EU most likely/sensible path but even that takes time say 18months - the only work around to that was down the EEA EFTA route. During this period UK becomes dumping ground for every shonky and counterfeit good that you can legally sell in EU. This is why Airbus is going mental and Dutch have car industry not to use UK supply - Quality isn't proven to meet EU standards so it can't be used

When I said cross border property, I meant properties that span the border.
The thing you describe as a pre EU free movement of people treaty stopped, or was overtaken when both countries joined the EU. Are you suggesting that the ROI somehow revives that old treaty whilst the UK 'renages' on it's own international treaty the GFA?
You also mention above the notion of facial recognition which indicates that you wish to see some kind of restriction of the free movement of people anyway, and there remains the sheer practicalities of implementing your suggestion to take in the length of the border and the crossing points.
The devil is in the practical details and I am sorry but I don't believe the scenario you suggest should play out is practicable.

 

[gosub]

When I said cross border property, I meant properties that span the border.
The thing you describe as a pre EU free movement of people treaty stopped, or was overtaken when both countries joined the EU. Are you suggesting that the ROI somehow revives that old treaty whilst the UK 'renages' on it's own international treaty the GFA?
You also mention above the notion of facial recognition which indicates that you wish to see some kind of restriction of the free movement of people anyway, and there remains the sheer practicalities of implementing your suggestion to take in the length of the border and the crossing points.
The devil is in the practical details and I am sorry but I don't believe the scenario you suggest should play out is practicable.

Properties IS STILL IRELLIVANT.

Common Travel Area - Wikipedia

Facial recog is for POI's and watchlist. Of your 400 crossing points - use the bribe the DUP got to chicane 350 of them, increase police patrols on 40 of them and actually make 10 fit for HGV purpose.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It is, its just far from perfect but will only get better

And the better it gets the more grief it will cause for each person wrongly identified.

 

[redsquirrel]

<snip>.

Bang on the money as usual danny.

Criticism of these states or regimes does not imply support for someone else that you want to say is worse. This is basic stuff people.

Yep.