Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[danny la rouge]

It’s being seen through that prism on this thread because this is the Brexit thread...

Brexit is being discussed because it's a current affairs issue. But rerunning the referendum every time a Brexit item comes up isn't useful. Replying to every criticism of the EU with "but Farage" isn't useful. Thinking that the only two possible camps are liberal remainers or Tory Brexiters isn't useful or true. People are stuck. And that's a void of politics. And it's stopping some people from actually seeing the real world out there.

I mean look at toblerone3's response to those criticisms that Joey Ayoub levies. FFS.

 

[Winot]

Brexit is being discussed because it's a current affairs issue. But rerunning the referendum every time a Brexit item comes up isn't useful. Replying to every criticism of the EU with "but Farage" isn't useful. Thinking that the only two possible camps are liberal remainers or Tory Brexiters isn't useful or true. People are stuck. And that's a void of politics. And it's stopping some people from actually seeing the real world out there.

Yes I take your point. It's understandable though that on a thread specifically about Brexit, people with strong views about Brexit make posts which are based on their views about Brexit.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes I take your point. It's understandable though that on a thread specifically about Brexit, people with strong views about Brexit make posts which are based on their views about Brexit.

But they're going round in circles. That's why the thread's boring. OK, they wanted Remain to win. Fine. But now what? That's going to be their response to every criticism of the EU? And even if we're merely narrowly discussing the Brexit process, that's still a pretty boring response 275 pages on, no?

 

[Supine]

But they're going round in circles. That's why the thread's boring. OK, they wanted Remain to win. Fine. But now what?

Maybe not a thread you should keep reading then. For a lot of remainers the battle isn't over. It's too important to just ignore and hope it all goes away.

 

[danny la rouge]

Maybe not a thread you should keep reading then. For a lot of remainers the battle isn't over. It's too important to just ignore and hope it all goes away.

If it was only this thread that might be a solution. Sadly, it's the entire level of mainstream political discourse.

 

[Winot]

But they're going round in circles. That's why the thread's boring. OK, they wanted Remain to win. Fine. But now what? That's going to be their response to every criticism of the EU? And even if we're merely narrowly discussing the Brexit process, that's still a pretty boring response 275 pages on, no?

Even if one accepts that the UK is leaving the EU, there's a huge amount to discuss in terms of the 'how'. I think Supine is right, you need to put the thread on ignore.

 

[teuchter]

But they're going round in circles. That's why the thread's boring. OK, they wanted Remain to win. Fine. But now what? That's going to be their response to every criticism of the EU? And even if we're merely narrowly discussing the Brexit process, that's still a pretty boring response 275 pages on, no?

If the responses to the criticisms of the EU are boring, maybe the criticisms of the EU are boring too. Both sides of the discussion can stop going on about the EU border policies because that's now irrelevant to discussions about how the UK actually 'does' Brexit.

We could talk about the details of how we do the Brexit, how to resolve the tricky problems like the Irish border and so on. But, those who voted remain don't have many solutions for problems they voted to not have in the first place, and most of the Brexit representatives on this thread say it's not Brexiters' problem to solve the problems. Proposed courses of action in response to Brexit include joining residents' associations.

Given the above, what is there left to discuss on this thread?

 

[danny la rouge]

If the responses to the criticisms of the EU are boring, maybe the criticisms of the EU are boring too.

Christ.

 

[alex_]

124,000 jobs going. So much for Labour and their jobs first brexit

Yes, the jobs go first.

Alex

 

[teuchter]

Christ.

I don't like some of the EU's border policies. I see the UK leaving the EU as a positive move in light of this. = not boring

I don't like some of the EU's border policies. I do not see the UK leaving the EU as a positive move in light of this. = boring

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't like some of the EU's border policies. I see the UK leaving the EU as a positive move in light of this. = not boring

I don't like some of the EU's border policies. I do not see the UK leaving the EU as a positive move in light of this. = boring

I'm sorry you're bored that people are dying. What can we do to rid you of this troublesome ennui?

 

[Raheem]

So, Danny, it seems like you are declining to take sides over Brexit.

Is that what people mean when they talk about the Swiss model?

 

[danny la rouge]

So, Danny, it seems like you are declining to take sides over Brexit

What does that even mean? That's such a meaningless thing to say.

Did you see where I told you how I'd voted?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sorry you're bored that people are dying. What can we do to rid you of this troublesome ennui?

remove the lock from a toilet door

 

[Raheem]

What does that even mean? That's such a meaningless thing to say.

Did you see where I told you how I'd voted?

I only saw the part where you went on and on about how you wish you'd abstained and how everyone but you doesn't understand anything. Apologies if I'm misinterpreting any of it, though. I'll confess to skim-reading a bit.

 

[teuchter]

I'm sorry you're bored that people are dying.

Christ.

 

[danny la rouge]

I only saw the part where you went on and on about how you wish you'd abstained and how everyone but you doesn't understand anything. Apologies if I'm misinterpreting any of it, though. I'll confess to skim-reading a bit.

Yes. I wish I'd abstained. Liberal remainers in 2018 make me wish I'd abstained.

 

[danny la rouge]

Christ.

You're the one who said the criticisms of EU migrant policy were boring.

 

[DexterTCN]

Christ.

I'm sure brexit will help them.

 

[sleaterkinney]

As a liberal remainer, the choice for me was between the EU and a brexit with the likes of Farage, Dacre, Gove coupled with an economic crash, I'm not sure criticising the EU has an effect, the alternative is worse.

 

[danny la rouge]

I only saw the part where you went on and on about how you wish you'd abstained and how everyone but you doesn't understand anything. Apologies if I'm misinterpreting any of it, though. I'll confess to skim-reading a bit.

Is Brexit actually going to happen?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure criticising the EU has an effect, the alternative is worse.

So no point in any criticism of the EU. Keep them all to ourselves. Zip it. Because Farage. Got it.

 

[sleaterkinney]

So no point in any criticism of the EU. Keep them all to ourselves. Zip it. Because Farage. Got it.

You can criticise it all you like but you also have to deal with what the alternative is.

 

[danny la rouge]

You can criticise it all you like but you also have to deal with what the alternative is.

Why are you framing it that way?

What else does that work with? If I criticise the Israeli State's actions against Palestinians do I have to think about the states that are worse than Israel? If I criticise the Assad regime in Syria do I have to answer "whataboutery" questions on other dispicable regimes? If I dislike something the UK government does after Brexit will I have to first deal with whether North Korea is worse?

Criticism of these states or regimes does not imply support for someone else that you want to say is worse. This is basic stuff people.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Criticism of these states or regimes does not imply support for someone else that you want to say is worse. This is basic stuff people.

It does, because it was, and still is, a binary choice.

 

[danny la rouge]

It does, because it was, and still is, a binary choice.

And so no criticism of the EU is possible. Pick a team.

OK. Neither.

 

[Plumdaff]

Seen this put in various ways, one saying just because popular democracy and industrial capitalism developed in broadly the same time and place theyve been assumed to be inextricable but if places like China show you can have latter without former then we can guess where we're headed.

Centrists are more hostile to democracy than others

I think this isn't even hidden in some of the loudest Remainer voices.

 

[DotCommunist]

A binary question but an apparent plurality of outcomes, soft hard, second reff, lexit EFTA grieves non rebellion etc etc

Good bit from Larry Elliot yesterday on liberal defeatism lol

 

[pocketscience]

I'm not sure criticising the EU has an effect, the alternative is worse.

Fuck me that's poor. Are you really that short sighted?
The alternative(s) will be developing over time, as will the EU.
As I've said here numerous times, there is no status quo. The UK always had one foot outside the EU (no euro, no schengen, rebates etc) and post brexit we may end up with only a couple of toes still in the Eu. Maybe none.
The EU can't stand still. They'll be driving policies that are largely built on a federalisation of the Euro block. The UK aren't at that table and was told in no uncertain terms (whilst still in the EU - referendum not even announced) that its opinion there is worthless.
So 3, maybe 5 years down the line it's just a matter of how many toes of that one foot you want to have in or out of the Eu.
Just because you voted remain, doesent absolve you from airing any opinions to criticisms of the Eu. Quite the contrary.
You should quite easily be able to sell me the idea that the UK should adopt the Euro as its prime currency.
Or suggest how the UKs sterling economy benefits from not being aligned to the Euro economy's decision making process, dispite being inextricably bound to it in a political union.

 

[Pickman's model]

Centrists are more hostile to democracy than others

I think this isn't even hidden in some of the loudest Remainer voices.

ah - but hostile to what democracy?

a limited selection of fat pig representative in parliament is not imo democracy, not when you have no real say over, precious little way to select or hold accountable, the people who exert a more immediate authority over your life like bosses or landlords.

it is not 'democracy' that has led us to the pretty pass we find ourselves in, but an absence of democracy, even in the stunted version so proudly held up by politicians of all stripes.