Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[gosub]

Might be true, might not. It's generally worth looking at things on their own merits and not accepting or discounting them according to whether or not the people involved are on your side.

Fair enough. Next question :why would they have had documents about the FBI investigation?

 

[billbond]

Might be true, might not. It's generally worth looking at things on their own merits and not accepting or discounting them according to whether or not the people involved are on your side.

which is exactly what the poster has done
I see a few law suits ahead

Seems the Russians are controlling everything according to the papers and media and on here
Im off to put a bet on Russia for the World cup, surely they cant fail, after all they got Brexit and Trump in.
Got to be worth a few quid

 

[redsquirrel]

Fair enough. Next question :why would they have had documents about the FBI investigation?

The Guardian/Observer suggestion is that Wigmore had them through his position as trade envoy to Belize.

EDIT: It is a terrible piece. There might be substance to these allegations but the reds under the beds crap below means that Cadwalladr's claims need careful study.

A leader of the Leave.EU campaign suggested sending a “message of support” to the Russian ambassador after the then foreign secretary made a speech that was critical of Russia, documents seen by the Observer suggest.

Damian Collins, chair of the culture, media and sport select committee, said that Banks and Wigmore appeared to have misled parliament and “what we really need to know is why”. He added: “It makes you question whose side they are on.”

 

[teqniq]

billbond If by poster you mean me, you are making an assumption. I actually spoiled my ballot paper in the referendum by writing 'Abstain' on it. I was persuaded by arguments, mainly read on here that there was and is a left-wing case for brexit but at the end of the day I couldn't in all conscience vote for leave as I felt the whole thing had been hijacked the the xenophobes, racists and bigots. Purely a personal decision I know and one that had absolutely no effect for the outcome of the vote in my area as the result was overwhelmingly for remain. But back to the content of my post above. If the allegations are true then there should be arrests, not lawsuits.

 

[gosub]

The Guardian/Observer suggestion is that Wigmore had them through his position as trade envoy to Belize.

EDIT: It is a terrible piece. There might be substance to these allegations but the reds under the beds crap below means that Cadwalladr's claims need careful study.

Nope why would a trade envoy to Belize have the documents

 

[billbond]

billbond If by poster you mean me, you are making an assumption. I actually spoiled my ballot paper in the referendum by writing 'Abstain' on it. I was persuaded by arguments, mainly read on here that there was and is a left-wing case for brexit but at the end of the day I couldn't in all conscience vote for leave as I felt the whole thing had been hijacked the the xenophobes, racists and bigots. Purely a personal decision I know and one that had absolutely no effect for the outcome of the vote in my area as the result was overwhelmingly for remain. But back to the content of my post above. If the allegations are true then there should be arrests, not lawsuits.

Fair enough, and i have never voted apart from the EU ref.
Yes and from that ref allegations i take it you agree if not true should/will be lawsuits.

 

[teqniq]

I would prefer to wait and see what happens actually.

 

[redsquirrel]

I mean this is the type of crap that undermines Cadwalladr's credibility and shows her politics

The foreign secretary of Britain had made critical remarks about a hostile foreign power. And, so these documents appear to suggest, prompted the Leave.EU team to swing into action in support of the hostile foreign power. And, astonishingly, to write a personal note of support to the country’s ambassador.

(my emphasis). I wasn't aware we were at war on Russia in 2016.

You've got this garbage sitting alongside stuff that really does look dodgy.

And regardless of what the truth actually is Cadwalladr is a prick. Russia posting Leave crap is 'stealing an election', the president of the US telling people to vote Remain is democracy in action.

In 2016, Brexit and Trump were the first fake news elections. Though by “fake news”, one means sophisticated information operations, developed out of hybrid warfare techniques – pioneered by Russia and now aped across the world

Yes before 2016 political groups didn't engage in propaganda, there wasn't PR departments and spin doctors, stories and scandals were hushed up by those in power. These latest claims she is making may be true but the rock her politics lies upon is dodgy as hell. At heart her position is that that those thick proles were duped into voting for Leave by the baddies. It can't be that based on 30+ years of experience many people felt that Leave was a better option (except for the racists).

 

[redsquirrel]

Nope why would a trade envoy to Belize have the documents

What do you mean nope? That's what the Observer is suggesting/implying here surely.

According to material seen by the Observer, Wigmore, who was Belize’s trade envoy to Britain at the time, forwarded an email to a Russian diplomat marked “Fw Cottrell docs – Eyes Only”

 

[gosub]

What do you mean nope? That's what the Observer is suggesting/implying here.

Logged on on laptop. When they said FBI investigation, I was thinking of a different FBI investigation, this stuff is UKIP related of course he would have access to documents on it....an odd thing to do but not criminal. In fact she's not even saying that, IS LYING TO PARLIAMENT CRIMINAL? You have to resign if you're a minister BUT for it to be criminal then turkey would have voted for Xmas to get that enshirned in law

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

All eyes towards Ze Fatherland as Merkel will tomorrow try to offload the refugees she took in on to fellow EU states that don’t want them. Schengen is at stake.

 

[Pickman's model]

All eyes towards Ze Fatherland as Merkel will tomorrow try to offload the refugees she took in on to fellow EU states that don’t want them. Schengen is at stake.

((((schengen))))

 

[gentlegreen]

US Wise Example: Le Pen Invites French Gov't to Slap Duties on Germany's Exports
© REUTERS / Charles Platiau

Addressing French radio Europe 1’s audience, France’s National Front party (FN) leader Marine Le Pen has suggested that France introduce taxes on German-manufactured goods, thereby referring to Donald Trump’s recently announced economic measures vis-à-vis China.

According to the French politician, the US economic policies should set an example for France, whose external trade deficit with Germany is estimated at over 17 billion euros.


US Wise Example: Le Pen Invites French Gov't to Slap Duties on Germany's Exports

 

[not-bono-ever]

It is not news that marine LP wants to see these protections in place - it was pretty clear in the FN manifesto- the idea that France is fighting wars on two fronts is standard FN thinking

 

[billbond]

And regardless of what the truth actually is Cadwalladr is a prick. Russia posting Leave crap is 'stealing an election', the president of the US telling people to vote Remain is democracy in action.

Will be interesting to see if/when it all comes out how much her masters have paid her.
You could see she was lying when she was interviewed.
Looked on some sites and they are digging the dirt on her already.

 

[redsquirrel]

Addressing French radio Europe 1’s audience, France’s National Front party (FN) leader Marine Le Pen has suggested that France introduce taxes on German-manufactured goods, thereby referring to Donald Trump’s recently announced economic measures vis-à-vis China.

How does this relate to Britain leaving the UK? What point are you trying to make?

 

[Mr Moose]

Exactly what HoratioCuthbert said. The fact that you are only able to see this from the Remain/Leave prism shows up the vapidity of your politics. Whether people voted leave or remain is irrelevant, the point is that the EU is a brutal neo-liberal entity.

Oh those nasty national governments forcing that poor EU to behave in this way. I suppose the EU is also been "constrained" to murder the Greeks too? What rot. Kouvelakis and Mailk outline how the EU is violently enforcing it's borders, both internal and external, in line with it's politics.

Must have been a secret leave infiltrator.
Must be FAKE NEWS, it can't be that the EU is doing this because such deals advance it's political aims. No it must just be those racists leave voters forcing them to behave in this way.

My frustration with your argument is that you don’t compare it with any likely outcome of leaving or even the unlikely collapse of the EU. A populist, very largely right wing movement won the vote in the UK. We can see with Trump what kind of migration policies work for populists. You make very valid criticisms of the EU, but I suspect things could be even worse in this and many other political arenas.

Were it possible to get a Corbyn Govt, then maybe we could have an independent policy that was kinder. Equally had that happened within the EU a kinder policy could prevail more widely. The principle of investing to stop people having the need to leave their homes is not wrong after all. But we may not get Corbyn, because many Leavers must protect their triumph above all other considerations and will continue to vote for the Tories for this reason alone.

 

[Poi E]

Why the assumption that Labour would be easier on immigration? That would be a vote loser, surely.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why the assumption that Labour would be easier on immigration? That would be a vote loser, surely.

 

[Mr Moose]

Why the assumption that Labour would be easier on immigration? That would be a vote loser, surely.

I’m assuming that would be an ambition of a Corbyn Govt. I agree that it has not been evidenced recently by Labour.

It would surely be a major disappointment if Corbyn got in and they were still churning out those mugs and the policies that went with them?

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m assuming that would be an ambition of a Corbyn Govt. I agree that it has not been evidenced recently by Labour.

It would surely be a major disappointment if Corbyn got in and they were still churning out those mugs and the policies that went with them?

specially as those mugs have the date of the 2015 general election on them

 

[Mr Moose]

specially as those mugs have the date of the 2015 general election on them

Jezza’s more ardent nutters will firmly believe he can travel back and win it this time.

 

[gosub]

Jezza’s more ardent nutters will firmly believe he can travel back and win it this time.

Had to google to check (so much shit has happened since then) but 2015 was Milliband...the one with the stone tablet

 

[DotCommunist]

the menhir of pledges, way before the famous Doubting of Corbyn (many thomas' abounded yea, and many mr. mooses, who demanded to see the hole in his side)

 

[Poi E]

Mr Moose, the best you can hope for is "we will watch the borders, too, and won't kick out Windrush folk..."

 

[redsquirrel]

My frustration with your argument is that you don’t compare it with any likely outcome of leaving or even the unlikely collapse of the EU.
....
You make very valid criticisms of the EU, but I suspect things could be even worse in this and many other political arenas.

Why is any comparison needed? Does that fact that things could be worse justify the EUs treatment of the refugees? That line of argument justifies any behaviour, including Trumps.

You still can't see beyond Leave or Remain. But that's irrelevant, the point is that the EU is currently constructing a border policy that is attacking the working class both internally or externally. Whether people voted Leave or Remain, whether they think the UK will be better off in the EU or outside is beside the point.

 

[Supine]

You still can't see beyond Leave or Remain. But that's irrelevant, the point is that the EU is currently constructing a border policy that is attacking the working class both internally or externally.

You can't see beyond the prism of class. But that's irrelevant. The point is the EU countries are individually trying to deal with an influx of people from a multitude of countries. Some are eligible to enter the EU and some are not. I'm sure it isn't easy to determine which are which?

What is your real politik solution? No borders, no sovereign states?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why is any comparison needed? Does that fact that things could be worse justify the EUs treatment of the refugees? That line of argument justifies any behaviour, including Trumps.

You still can't see beyond Leave or Remain. But that's irrelevant, the point is that the EU is currently constructing a border policy that is attacking the working class both internally or externally. Whether people voted Leave or Remain, whether they think the UK will be better off in the EU or outside is beside the point.

Tbh doesn't matter if it's the member states or the eu super-state, the state as we all know is the tool by which one class oppresses another. I would be more than a little startled if the eu did not hold true to that iron rule

 

[redsquirrel]

You can't see beyond the prism of class.

I can but certainly class is the basis of my politics, that's why I'm a socialist.

But that's irrelevant. The point is the EU countries are individually trying to deal with an influx of people from a multitude of countries. Some are eligible to enter the EU and some are not. I'm sure it isn't easy to determine which are which?

What does this mean? The because individual EU countries have their own immigration policies the EU as a body doesn't? That because it's hard to determine whether some people are eligible to enter the EU it's fine to put people into concentration camps and/or pay authoritarian regimes to administer such camps?

What is your real politik solution? No borders, no sovereign states?

Ultimately yes. But on the day-to-day level to take actions that advance the solidarity and power of the working class. What's your "solution"?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

But on the day-to-day level to take actions that advance the solidarity and power of the working class.

What day-to-day actions are you taking that will protect, say, skilled manufacturing jobs that rely on complex just-in-time supply chains?